Reality check on electric cars

https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/electricity/images/outlet-graph-large.jpg
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Renewables provide more electricity than coal. It would be more accurate to claim these are renewable electric cars.

Ever investigate what it takes to manufacture a battery?
 
Ever investigate what it takes to manufacture a battery?

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https://pubs.acs.org/doi/full/10.1021/acs.est.6b00177
This is from 2016 so is outdated for emissions since the US electricity produced by coal has dropped by half since then and renewables have increased to surpass coal for electrical production.
An electric car produces about 20-30% of the CO2 compared to an ICE car over its lifetime.

When it comes to environmental effects of mining, the dangers and costs can't begin to compare to the costs of the environmental disasters that have been caused by oil spills.

Four years after the Exxon Valdez spill, a population of forage fish called herring disappeared entirely from the location where the vessel broke. Scientists still aren’t sure why this happened. They can’t even ascertain fully if the oil spill was to blame. But the impact of this disappearance was catastrophic. It spelt the death of an 8-million-dollar-a-year fishery industry. Although most fishermen never explicitly sought herrings, these small forage fishes are preyed on by larger fish for food. Once the population of herrings collapsed, it left a gaping hole in the middle of the marine food chain. 25 years later, herrings are yet to return and the fishery industry has all but vanished.
https://finshots.in/archive/the-economic-cost-of-oil-spills/

https://www.britannica.com/event/Deepwater-Horizon-oil-spill/Environmental-costs
 
https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/electricity/images/outlet-graph-large.jpg
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Renewables provide more electricity than coal. It would be more accurate to claim these are renewable electric cars.

Special pleading fallacy. Did you forget that 80% (using this source) is NOT 'renewable' energy?

These 'coal fired' or 'nuke powered' or 'natural gas' fired electric cars are still using power plants to charge from, dumbass.
Wind energy is the 2nd most expensive method of generating electricity there is. Solar is the most expensive. Both are FAR more expensive than nuclear power (watt for watt).

So what YOU are saying is that the EV is the most expensive method of getting around, since you discard 80% of electricity generation methods used in the States.

Coal is also more plentiful. It is not used in power plants as much because of government interference. This is fascism.
Wind and solar are heavily subsidized by government as part of that government interference. This is also fascism.

Fascism is government manipulation of markets. In this case, the energy market.
 
At my wife's last job, there are at least two dozen electric car chargers in the parking lot. Until Covid-19 hit and they were all sent home to work, I would sometimes see five or six cars at a time plugged in on those mornings I dropped off my wife to work.

and those recharges were free, right? and no additional electricity needs to generated to recharge all of those ECs?
 
Ever investigate what it takes to manufacture a battery?

These batteries require lithium and cobalt, primarily. There are also small amounts of manganese and a few rare earths.

Lithium is mined primarily in Chile. It is somewhat limited in availability, which means that if everyone buys electric cars, there won't be enough lithium. The price of the car will necessarily be high due to the high cost of the lithium.
Cobalt is even worse. Almost all the cobalt comes from Congo, which uses child labor abusively in the mines. That single supply line is easily disrupted by one of the many wars constantly occurring within Africa. The cost of cobalt will skyrocket if everyone drives electric cars.

So, should that happen, the price of the car will be immense. Remember, these are raw ores. They still must be processed to produce the final chemicals used in making the batteries, and the batteries themselves will still have to be manufactured.
China is the primary manufacturer of lithium batteries (about 70% of the market). This is not a friendly nation to the States. It is friendly to Russia, however.

Making the batteries use a lot of energy. Among the materials required is aluminum, which is very energy intensive to smelt, and lithium, also very energy intensive to smelt. Most of these materials destined for battery use is smelted in China.

The batteries are theoretically recyclable, but it's not practical. It costs more to recycle one than to make a new one.

These batteries aren't cheap. Replacing a battery pack on a typical Tesla costs approx $25,000. A battery may be damaged by age, travel damage such as water or stone exposure, wrecks, and other reasons. These batteries are dangerous also, since their low internal resistance and use of flammable electrolyte can fairly easily start a fire, should the battery be charged or discharged too rapidly. Some cases of aging have been known to start battery fires. Once burning, it burns like a firework (a bright flame, similar to a magnesium flame). It is a class B fire (electrical fire). If all cells are involved in the pack, it becomes a class A (common) fire. The best extinguishing agent to use is CO2, which deprives the fire of oxygen and lowers the temperature, breaking the fire triangle. It also leaves no residue. The battery will have to be replaced of course, but the car can be salvaged if the fire wasn't burning for too long. Unfortunately, most fire departments are not equipped to fight battery fires.

Recently, a ship carrying thousands of high end European cars suffered a battery fire from an EV. The fire spread through the hold and the crew had no way to fight it. They abandoned ship safely, but the entire container ship was lost, along with all of it's cargo. People had been waiting literally years for these cars to be delivered. The car manufactures of course suffered the loss financially as well. Some may not recover from it and will be forced out of business.

The charging stations also must be manufactured. These make use of electronics and heavy transformers (oil filled...remember the pollution concerns about THOSE?), and connectors that are mostly only available from Asia. Due to the current shipping problems, these components and charging stations are seeing a real serious shortage in availability. Existing charging stations are numerous, most occurring in workplace parking lots, shopping centers, etc. It is also possible to have an electrician install one in your home (special high amperage circuit is required). These charging systems will take about eight hours to charge a typical Tesla Model 3 from dead battery to fully charged. They are expensive, but they do have the advantage that they can use a standard 200A service entrance available on a house without overload. It's similar to hook up a welder.

High current charging stations are quite detrimental to the battery. Using such stations shortens the life of the battery considerably. A few are available, but these require special high current supplies specially wired from local distribution lines. As more of these come into use, the electrical distribution grid will have to be heavily modified just to carry the necessary power. Further, more generating capacity will have to be built. This is currently blocked by various forms of government interference. These stations can charge a Tesla in about an hour (dead battery to fully charged), but the battery will not last as long in that Tesla before needing replacement.

Lithium batteries have the advantage of a very low internal resistance and a light weight. Their disadvantage is that current must be limited to maintain a long battery life and to reduce the risk of fire. In cars, battery packs are cooled by forced air cooling, or by undercarriage air cooling.

EVERYTHING in an electric car is powered by that battery. The lights, the heater, the computer, the motors, the windows, EVERYTHING. Use of electric cars in inclement weather is a further drain on the battery and shortens range. Towing with them is impractical, since range will be reduced to unusable values.

The current range (typical driving habits) is about 300 miles, about the same as one fill-up for a gasoline powered car. It takes a few minutes to fill up a gasoline car, but it takes eight hours to charge the electric car (to fill it up). This makes the EV impractical for cross country travel. It's effectively a commuter car.

For those concerned about CO2, manufacturing these batteries is very energy intensive. That means emitting CO2 to do it. The power plant necessary to charge these cars also burn fuel to run. They also produce CO2.
There is no need to be concerned about CO2, however, since CO2 has no capability to warm the Earth.

To summarize, the EV does cause a lot of CO2 (so what?), uses difficult to get materials that are very limited, and benefits mostly Chile, the Congo, and China...not exactly friendly nations. Their long 'refueling' cycle makes them impractical for continuous use. A decent, if expensive commuter car, but not much else.
 
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The interesting thing is that the energy and pollution that is caused by building a battery is less than 1% of the energy and pollution required to drill, pump, refine, deliver and power an ICE car for 10 years.

The battery generally doesn't last for 10 years. I know Tesla says they are supposed to, but the batteries haven't been doing so. Further, they are subject to damage form water exposure, rocks, or other road hazards. Any one of these can cause a battery fire, destroying the car.

Drilling for oil does not require much in the way of energy. Refining it does use energy, but that can come from the oil itself. Refining and delivery of oil is cheaper than refining and delivering batteries, which mostly come from China.


People are going to buy the car they want. If you want an EV, go buy one. If you want an ICE car, go buy one. One only has to look at the cars on the road to see how many of them want to buy EVs. It's not a large percentage of people. Government has NO place manipulating markets.
 
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Special pleading fallacy. Did you forget that 80% (using this source) is NOT 'renewable' energy
It seems you are unable to understand simple concepts. The claim was made that the cars were being powered by coal. Coal makes up 19% of electrical production. Renewables make up 20% of electrical production. A claim that the cars are being powered by coal is less accurate than a claim that they are being powered by renewables. But then you are special when it comes to your fallacious pleadings.



These 'coal fired' or 'nuke powered' or 'natural gas' fired electric cars are still using power plants to charge from, dumbass.
Wind energy is the 2nd most expensive method of generating electricity there is. Solar is the most expensive. Both are FAR more expensive than nuclear power (watt for watt).
Unsupported claim on your part. Provide your evidence that solar and wind are the 2 most expensive methods of generating electricity.

According to the EIA solar and onshore wind are the cheapest forms of generation even if you remove any tax credits.
https://www.eia.gov/outlooks/aeo/pdf/electricity_generation.pdf
Table 1b - levelized cost of electricity

https://www.irena.org/-/media/Files...hash=A27B0D0EF33A68679066E30E507DEA0FD99D9D48
The global weighted-average LCOE of utility-scale solar PV for newly commissioned
projects fell by 85% between 2010 and 2020, from USD 0.381/kWh to USD 0.057/kWh
(Figure S.2), as total installed costs fell from USD 4 731/kW to USD 883/kW.

Perhaps you should join 2022 with the rest of us and see what today's costs are for solar and wind. Solar and wind may have been the most expensive 15 years ago but no longer.

So what YOU are saying is that the EV is the most expensive method of getting around, since you discard 80% of electricity generation methods used in the States.
Straw man on your part since I never discarded any generation methods. What I posted included all generation methods. But please provide your evidence that solar and wind are the most expensive generation methods since all current information points to solar and wind being some of the cheapest generation methods.

Coal is also more plentiful. It is not used in power plants as much because of government interference. This is fascism.
Wind and solar are heavily subsidized by government as part of that government interference. This is also fascism.

Fascism is government manipulation of markets. In this case, the energy market.
Please provide evidence to support your claims.
 
The battery generally doesn't last for 10 years. I know Tesla says they are supposed to, but the batteries haven't been doing so. Further, they are subject to damage form water exposure, rocks, or other road hazards. Any one of these can cause a battery fire, destroying the car.

Drilling for oil does not require much in the way of energy. Refining it does use energy, but that can come from the oil itself. Refining and delivery of oil is cheaper than refining and delivering batteries, which mostly come from China.


People are going to buy the car they want. If you want an EV, go buy one. If you want an ICE car, go buy one. One only has to look at the cars on the road to see how many of them want to buy EVs. It's not a large percentage of people. Government has NO place manipulating markets.

As usual, good stuff from you.
Everyone also forgets to mention the repair of EV's which presents its own set of problems. Many body shops won't touch them with a 25 ft. pole which is close to the recommended distance they are to be kept from other vehicles in the shop due to the possibility of fire and explosion. Groups of batteries in differing states of discharge can be a hazard and even the manufacturer of my charger recommends only charging my Li-ion 18650 or 16650 batteries on a metal surface and always with someone nearby. As a heavy user of US-made flashlights, (Malkoff and Surefire), I only use rechargeable batteries from Japan and none of them have ever let me down.

Until the manufacturing, cost, recycling, and efficiency issues are worked out, these are just toys for the rich who want to feel good.
 
It seems you are unable to understand simple concepts. The claim was made that the cars were being powered by coal.
No. The JOKE is that the cars are powered by coal. It is not a claim, dumbass.
Coal makes up 19% of electrical production.
Due to government interference...in other words, fascism.
Renewables make up 20% of electrical production.
Natural gas is renewable. Oil is renewable. Coal is plentiful (it is not known if it is renewable). Solar power is only available during daylight. The panels are expensive and suffer from ongoing damage from wind, hail, rain, wind, critters, and even sunlight. Wind power is only available during a narrow range of wind speeds. Above or below that it can't be used. They produce NO power during icing conditions. They are also subject to hail damage and high winds. Manufacturing and shipping and installing the machine requires about a dozen special trucks designed for the purpose. Operating a wind generator out of specs can cause a catastrophic failure that can throw dangerous debris about a mile.

Both produce piddle power.
A claim that the cars are being powered by coal is less accurate than a claim that they are being powered by renewables.
Neither is accurate. Special pleading fallacy.
But then you are special when it comes to your fallacious pleadings.
Denial of logic. Insult fallacy.
Unsupported claim on your part.
RQAA.
Provide your evidence that solar and wind are the 2 most expensive methods of generating electricity.
RQAA. I already have.
According to the EIA solar and onshore wind are the cheapest forms of generation even if you remove any tax credits.
Not about tax credits. It's about government subsidies and the total cost, watt for watt. The EIA report you referenced doesn't mention any of that, of course. Indeed, is doesn't mention ANY current costs, watt for watt. It is a speculation, no more. You really should read what you reference.
Table 1b - levelized cost of electricity
Nope. That table is a speculation only, and ignores continuing costs and replacements due to damage from the elements, and the collection costs to sync up with the grid.
Perhaps you should join 2022 with the rest of us and see what today's costs are for solar and wind. Solar and wind may have been the most expensive 15 years ago but no longer.
They have become MORE expensive.
Straw man on your part since I never discarded any generation methods.
Lie. Fallacy fallacy.
What I posted included all generation methods.
But you referred to only one, ignoring all the others. Special pleading fallacy.
But please provide your evidence that solar and wind are the most expensive generation methods
RQAA.
since all current information points to solar and wind being some of the cheapest generation methods.
No, it doesn't.
Please provide evidence to support your claims.
RQAA.


Asking the same question over and over mindlessly is just being stupid. The act of a fundamentalist.
 
As usual, good stuff from you.
*humble bow*, and thank you.
Everyone also forgets to mention the repair of EV's which presents its own set of problems.
That it does. They also have their own types of failures and weaknesses that require repair.
Many body shops won't touch them with a 25 ft. pole which is close to the recommended distance they are to be kept from other vehicles in the shop due to the possibility of fire and explosion.
Quite right. Even body work is tricky with the things, since wiring affecting battery circuits could be damaged or the shop itself may easily cause such damage accidentally.
Groups of batteries in differing states of discharge can be a hazard
Even groups of batteries in the same state of discharge can be a hazard. The electrolyte in these suckers is flammable, you see. The battery burns like a firework. If the thing is in a pack, it's a class B fire. You can't put it out with water. You must use a chemical or CO2 extinguisher. CO2 is recommended. Frankly, most shops have very limited capacity to put out fires. It actually takes practice to learn to use an extinguisher properly, and most extinguishers are too small to deal with such a fire.
and even the manufacturer of my charger recommends only charging my Li-ion 18650 or 16650 batteries on a metal surface and always with someone nearby.
Good advice. Of course, having someone nearby is generally only good enough to raise the alarm and transport the burning mess outside.
As a heavy user of US-made flashlights, (Malkoff and Surefire), I only use rechargeable batteries from Japan and none of them have ever let me down.
Japan has done remarkably well with battery manufacture. Panasonic had an issue awhile ago that resulted in spontaneous battery fires though. Metal contaminates from the assembly line, you see. Quite a few defective batteries got shipped.
Until the manufacturing, cost, recycling, and efficiency issues are worked out, these are just toys for the rich who want to feel good.
The cars on the road say it all. No many of them are EVs. Those that are are generally leased, not purchased. The car is too expensive.

I happen to live on the Wet side of Washington. It's rather liberal leaning around here, and STILL there are not that many EV's on the road around here. As I look out into the parking lot of our building and of neighboring businesses at the moment, there are NO EV's parked in any of them.

Guess they're at home, charging. :D
 
You still have not provided a source to support your claim?
Your inability to provide any evidence is noted.

All evidence does point to solar and wind being some of the cheapest generation methods since you have provided no evidence at all.

Refusing to provide any evidence to support your claim is what is stupid. We have no reason to accept your ipse dixit since you can't provide any evidence in support of it.
 
As usual, good stuff from you.
Everyone also forgets to mention the repair of EV's which presents its own set of problems. Many body shops won't touch them with a 25 ft. pole which is close to the recommended distance they are to be kept from other vehicles in the shop due to the possibility of fire and explosion. Groups of batteries in differing states of discharge can be a hazard and even the manufacturer of my charger recommends only charging my Li-ion 18650 or 16650 batteries on a metal surface and always with someone nearby. As a heavy user of US-made flashlights, (Malkoff and Surefire), I only use rechargeable batteries from Japan and none of them have ever let me down.

Until the manufacturing, cost, recycling, and efficiency issues are worked out, these are just toys for the rich who want to feel good.

It's interesting that every gas station has warnings that gas is flammable. One would almost think that gas was dangerous.
iu
 
You still have not provided a source to support your claim?
Your inability to provide any evidence is noted.

All evidence does point to solar and wind being some of the cheapest generation methods since you have provided no evidence at all.

Refusing to provide any evidence to support your claim is what is stupid. We have no reason to accept your ipse dixit since you can't provide any evidence in support of it.

RQAA.
 
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