Reality check on electric cars

[T. A. Gardner]

https://www.eia.gov/outlooks/aeo/pdf/electricity_generation.pdf

Wind is cheaper than natural gas even if subsidies are accounted for. Commercial solar installations are comparable to natural gas.

Neither desirable nor really true...

Wind and solar are heavily subsidized. Neither is cost effective without sustained subsidies but those have to come from somewhere so that's just cost shifting to make wind and solar look better.

Solar isn't competitive commercially against any other generation system period.

To get a kilowatt-day of power out of a solar array you need to install about 5 kw of capacity and have about 3 kw of storage capacity on top of that. The alternative is duplication of generation systems with the second being natural gas, oil, etc., to provide power when the sun goes down.

So, either you build roughly five times the generation capacity you need (maybe more), have 60% of that capacity in a storage system like batteries, pumped hydro (means upping the generation system to about 8 times the capacity you need because now you have to run pumps all day), some other system that stores energy for when the sun isn't shining, and have to install a 'stupid' grid (it isn't smart if it bankrupts the nation to build it), to move power around because some of the time you'll be overproducing for demand...

Solar is singularly the most inefficient and costly means to generate electricity there is.

The solution is nuclear backed by natural gas and going to either hydrogen or ammonia as a portable fuel using fuel cells. Solar and wind are losers and always will be.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Why not horses and goats? Cheap, better for the environment and everyone can grow their own. Win-Win!

 

[Stringfellow Hawk]

sure ya do

And over a billion dollars, your thugs couldn't trim his yard

 

[T. A. Gardner]

Why not horses and goats? Cheap, better for the environment and everyone can grow their own. Win-Win!

Actually not. Livestock, especially in large cities were major sources of pollution and disease. A single horse produces between 15 and 35 pounds of manure a day. Between the smell, attraction of pestilence like flies, and unsanitary conditions, major cities were very unhealthy places to be. In New York City by 1860 there about 150,000 horses, by 1890 about 200,000... That's between 1500 and 3500 TONS of horse shit a day!
Tack onto that horses that died each day and were abandoned on streets to rot, and you get a pretty nasty picture of were things were at pre-internal combustion engine...

If anything, the invention of the automobile saved the horse from a horrible fate of being worked to death while people's lives were vastly improved by the elimination of dead horses and thousands of tons of horseshit piling up in the streets.

 

[Nordberg]

I drove 1246 miles last week, man that volt would have been a blast . LMAO

It also has an ICe. It would be fine. My son takes his when he works in another state and leaves the Bolt to his wife. Some backwards states do not have many charging stations, so the Volt is perfect.
The Volt runs on electricity until the charge runs out, then it seamlessly switches to the regular engine.

 

[Nordberg]

Neither desirable nor really true...

Wind and solar are heavily subsidized. Neither is cost effective without sustained subsidies but those have to come from somewhere so that's just cost shifting to make wind and solar look better.

Solar isn't competitive commercially against any other generation system period.

To get a kilowatt-day of power out of a solar array you need to install about 5 kw of capacity and have about 3 kw of storage capacity on top of that. The alternative is duplication of generation systems with the second being natural gas, oil, etc., to provide power when the sun goes down.

So, either you build roughly five times the generation capacity you need (maybe more), have 60% of that capacity in a storage system like batteries, pumped hydro (means upping the generation system to about 8 times the capacity you need because now you have to run pumps all day), some other system that stores energy for when the sun isn't shining, and have to install a 'stupid' grid (it isn't smart if it bankrupts the nation to build it), to move power around because some of the time you'll be overproducing for demand...

Solar is singularly the most inefficient and costly means to generate electricity there is.

The solution is nuclear backed by natural gas and going to either hydrogen or ammonia as a portable fuel using fuel cells. Solar and wind are losers and always will be.

Coal and gas have been very heavily subsidized for many decades. They also have power over regulation. They are horrible blotches on the planet.
Note of course how much our health will be improved when ICEs are gone. Do you add the health costs to your calculation of their costs?

 

[T. A. Gardner]

The biggest reality check is that battery cars have a serviceable life of about 7 years at most at which point they're scrap. At that point the battery pack starts to die and the car becomes worthless. Replacing the pack is so expensive that it is rarely, if ever done.
One out-of-warranty failure in the pack of a Tesla renders it useless dragging the range down to as little as tens of miles...

 

[Matt Dillon]

Coal and gas have been very heavily subsidized for many decades. They also have power over regulation. They are horrible blotches on the planet.
Note of course how much our health will be improved when ICEs are gone. Do you add the health costs to your calculation of their costs?

Do you add in the bread you eat when the wheat was harvested by a diesel-powered International Harvester?

What is the home you live in made out of? All wood, concrete block, concrete and steel, or aluminum and wood?

Either way, ICE engines harvested the materials to build it, guaranteed.

Wait..unless you live in some kind of Adobe mud hut, or an old cracker river rock/cement house.

 

[katzgar]

And over a billion dollars, your thugs couldn't trim his yard

You should try that again this time do it sober

 

[katzgar]

The biggest reality check is that battery cars have a serviceable life of about 7 years at most at which point they're scrap. At that point the battery pack starts to die and the car becomes worthless. Replacing the pack is so expensive that it is rarely, if ever done.
One out-of-warranty failure in the pack of a Tesla renders it useless dragging the range down to as little as tens of miles...

Nope everything in your comment is just a bald-ass lie

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Actually not. Livestock, especially in large cities were major sources of pollution and disease. A single horse produces between 15 and 35 pounds of manure a day. Between the smell, attraction of pestilence like flies, and unsanitary conditions, major cities were very unhealthy places to be. In New York City by 1860 there about 150,000 horses, by 1890 about 200,000... That's between 1500 and 3500 TONS of horse shit a day!
Tack onto that horses that died each day and were abandoned on streets to rot, and you get a pretty nasty picture of were things were at pre-internal combustion engine...

If anything, the invention of the automobile saved the horse from a horrible fate of being worked to death while people's lives were vastly improved by the elimination of dead horses and thousands of tons of horseshit piling up in the streets.

What's this sudden concern about pollution and disease? That's very unTrumpian of you.

 

[katzgar]

The biggest reality check is that battery cars have a serviceable life of about 7 years at most at which point they're scrap. At that point the battery pack starts to die and the car becomes worthless. Replacing the pack is so expensive that it is rarely, if ever done.
One out-of-warranty failure in the pack of a Tesla renders it useless dragging the range down to as little as tens of miles...

when will you get your meth addiction under control? You just keep embarrassing yourself... https://www.tesla.com/support/sustainability-recycling

 

[katzgar]

Do you add in the bread you eat when the wheat was harvested by a diesel-powered International Harvester?

What is the home you live in made out of? All wood, concrete block, concrete and steel, or aluminum and wood?

Either way, ICE engines harvested the materials to build it, guaranteed.

Wait..unless you live in some kind of Adobe mud hut, or an old cracker river rock/cement house.

you are being an opioid addicted moron...yet again...

 

[Nordberg]

The biggest reality check is that battery cars have a serviceable life of about 7 years at most at which point they're scrap. At that point the battery pack starts to die and the car becomes worthless. Replacing the pack is so expensive that it is rarely, if ever done.
One out-of-warranty failure in the pack of a Tesla renders it useless dragging the range down to as little as tens of miles...

Another false claim. They have been warranted for 7 years, but none of them have failed. It was speculation when they said 7. It is much longer.

 

[katzgar]

Another false claim. They have been warranted for 7 years, but none of them have failed. It was speculation when they said 7. It is much longer.

I posted a link regarding autonomous tractors which going to production next year by monarch and John Deere is working on one. It'll be interesting to see how well they go because the internet really isn't quite reliable enough yet for a lot of autonomous stuff.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

What's this sudden concern about pollution and disease? That's very unTrumpian of you.

I'm not a follower of The Donald. I think he's a major asshole.

That said, I want what works. Nuclear (fission to fusion) backed by natural gas and a fuel cell using a portable fuel like hydrogen or ammonia that can be mass produced cheaply is the way to go here. Fossil fuels would continue to be used but in decline for energy use--remaining in use for the multitude of other things they are used for like lubricants and plastics.

Solar and wind are disastrously bad choices and should be abandoned almost entirely.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

I'm not a follower of The Donald. I think he's a major asshole.

That said, I want what works. Nuclear (fission to fusion) backed by natural gas and a fuel cell using a portable fuel like hydrogen or ammonia that can be mass produced cheaply is the way to go here. Fossil fuels would continue to be used but in decline for energy use--remaining in use for the multitude of other things they are used for like lubricants and plastics.

Solar and wind are disastrously bad choices and should be abandoned almost entirely.

Agreed Trump is a major asshole. He's also a traitor, but I doubt he'll hang for it.

Those all sounds great to me. Waste disposal and accidents remain a problem, but it's safest, fastest way to get off the oil tit.

The more electrical power the US has, the more likely it will use electrical vehicles along with all normal uses.

 

[Into the Night]

See you just keep doing it to yourself you keep embarrassing yourself and the problem is you're so opioid addicted and so drunk on everclear you just don't get it. There is no electric vehicle that needs to be recharged every 45 mi your problem is your so damn stupid and such a liar and such an inbred you have no clue no clue whatsoever about what's going on. You should be embarrassed by being so stupid but you're just not sober enough to be embarrassed.
Why Biden? Because Fuck You that's why. Barack Obama has a Grammy, an Emmy, a Nobel Prize, 2 terms as President and a Twitter account.

I guess you don't count golf carts and forklifts, which need to be charged long before they reach 45 miles.

A typical electric car, such as a Tesla or a Volt, can go about 350 miles on a single charge...about the same as most gasoline cars on a tank of gas.
The difference is how long it takes to refuel it after that point to go another 350 miles on a single charge.

The gasoline car takes about five minutes.
The electric car takes several hours, typically around eight hours.

The electricity for that car has to be generated somewhere. This places additional load on the electrical system, requiring MORE generating capacity than before. Oft times, that additional capacity is provided by coal burning power plants. The electric car is a coal fired car. It's also completely impractical for over the road use, such as long distances to travel, or all day use such as a business vehicle.

 

[katzgar]

I guess you don't count golf carts and forklifts, which need to be charged long before they reach 45 miles.

A typical electric car, such as a Tesla or a Volt, can go about 350 miles on a single charge...about the same as most gasoline cars on a tank of gas.
The difference is how long it takes to refuel it after that point to go another 350 miles on a single charge.

The gasoline car takes about five minutes.
The electric car takes several hours, typically around eight hours.

The electricity for that car has to be generated somewhere. This places additional load on the electrical system, requiring MORE generating capacity than before. Oft times, that additional capacity is provided by coal burning power plants. The electric car is a coal fired car. It's also completely impractical for over the road use, such as long distances to travel, or all day use such as a business vehicle.

Your assertion that horse and buggies required electricity is incorrect

 

[Into the Night]

From great-grandpop MAGA in 1909: Reality check on cars.

And now for some more belittling and false equivalencies.

1. Cars require a very dangerous volatile fuel: gasoline. Horse eat hay.

Hay can actually be dangerous. Obviously, you've never had a round hay bale get away from you and totally destroy whatever it hits.

2. Car are expensive and require maintenance. Horses reproduce themselves and self-repair.

If a horse breaks a leg, it's basically the end of that horse. If a car has a tire or wheel go bad, you can easily replace it. Cars are also a lot faster than horses and produce much less pollution.

3. No gas stations. Grass grows everywhere.

Actually, it doesn't. You should read up on things like the Donner Party disaster, where the horses died of starvation.

4. The dangerous speeds of cars, over 25 MPH, can suck the air from your lungs and accidents are fatal. Horses travel at a safe speed of 4-8MPH.

As I said. Cars are faster than horses, even off road. Did you know that trains traveled faster than 25mph in the 1850's?

5. Cars steal jobs. Stables, buggy manufacturers, saddle makers and dozens of other businesses will be put out of business by cars.

They are still there.

6. Horses drive themselves, cars do not.

Horses tend to wander off too. You can set the brakes on a car.

WAKE UP NORTH AMERICA!!!!!!! Horses have been in America for all of our history. Stick with what works!!!!!

They still are.

Now to deal with your trivializing the gasoline car.
Electric cars are quiet (too quiet!) and have smooth (if somewhat weenie) acceleration. They about the same range as a gasoline car.

Then comes the refueling.

You can refuel a gasoline car in about 5 minutes. It takes several hours to 'refuel' (recharge) the electric car. This makes the electric car completely impractical for over the road use (long trips) or for business vehicle use (such as a truck that has to work all day).
Both batteries or gasoline can be quite dangerous.
The electric car is more expensive. The batteries will last about 7 to 10 years, then they must be replaced. That is also expensive. Gasoline cars often develop various maintenance issues by this time, but the electric car is not immune to that either.

Many electric car designs handle snow and slippery conditions better, since they have traction motors that are computer controlled on each wheel. There are, however, some excellent designs in gasoline cars to handle snow and slippery conditions, such as your typical Subaru.

Electric cars must be charged from somewhere. They are not 'green'. They require more power from the grid. That power is generated using oil, natural gas, coal, nuclear, etc. They are not free power.

There is no Best Vehicle. Buy what you want. Mandating what others buy is fascism.