Slavery, the Prison/Industrial Complex, and American Hypocrisy

It is about race when white business men like you, can snort coke right in their financial offices, and I have seen this, out of hundrend dollar bills, and some black kid gets 30 years because he got popped three times with pot on him. that's about race.

And big corporations are not evil, nor are they good. They exist soley to make money. There is no heart, there is no morality. There is no emotion. There is no intent to do harm. There is simply, move forward and earn the largest possible profit.

And that can result in much evil.

Riiiiiiiiight, it is all about race. I have seen executives/celecrities of a wide variety of races (including black) get away with crap as you mentioned. It is flat out BS... no question. What do you want to bet that Vick gets less time in jail than the other three that plead guilty? It is more about wealth than race.

I also agree that the three strikes laws are not necessary and should be eliminated. That leaves it up to the discretion of the judges so that the kid that got busted for pot three times doesn't end up doing life.

But again, there is nothing wrong with prison labor if the prison is being compensated for the labor of the prisoners to offset the expense of housing the prisoners.
 
While I think that MJ should be legalized and taxed like tobacco, it is not the issue here. Again BAC is claiming that prisoners are slaves. Which is false. No one is forcing anyone to break the law. (Note: if you want the law changed, work to change it) If you break the law and are tried and convicted, you go to jail. Jail costs the taxpayers what? About $30-40k per year per inmate to house/feed??? Let them work and have the prisons re-coup that cost (or at least a good portion of it) if they can. It will save taxpayers the money.

This isn't about breaking the law, it's about justice, fairness, and hypocrisy.

If you have no problem with the disparity in sentencing, the US having more prisoners that all totalitarian nations and all other nations in the world, or the hypocrisy of pointing fingers at China for what is legally practiced in America, then there is no point to our discussion.

If you break the law and are tried and convicted, you go to jail

That's true if you're black, but not necessarily true if you're white. If you need statistics and studies, don't believe mine, do the research yourself.

It will save taxpayers the money.

At the same time it will cost taxpayers jobs .. and is saving taxpayers money the focus of the Justice System, or is justice.

Note: if you want the law changed, work to change it

NOTE: What do you think this is?

If you don't like the prisoners having to actually contribute anything BAC, then convince them to quit breaking the damn law. If you don't like the law as it currently stands, work to change it. But quit bitching about prisoners being made to work. The Constitution, as you pointed out, clearly allows for prisoners to be forced to work.

Justice is the point .. which is why you don't get it.

Is giving probabtion to the white guy convicted of the exact same crime as a non-white person who is sent to jail .. is that justice? .. I sense you don't really care .. then you should stop your bitchin' about what people who do care do about it.

I am not going to feel sorry for a prisoner being made to work, especially if the job is teaching him/her a work skill they can use when they get out.

Personally, I think prisoners should be made to work 8 hours a day, study four hours a day and the other 12 are theirs for exercise/sleep/eating etc... Do this Monday-Friday.

No one is asking you to feel sorry and frankly, not to even get involved. This is for people of conscience who are appalled by what America is becoming and want to do something about it.

I have no problem with your apathy.
 
the thing is how many of the people that we put in prision, would just be exicuted or mamed instead of a prision setance in the countrys that they name in this artical ?

Come on now bob... why would you want to look at other factors like that? It is ALL about looking at the generic numbers... nothing more.
Other factors are not to be taken into consideration.

:rolleyes:
 
But again, there is nothing wrong with prison labor if the prison is being compensated for the labor of the prisoners to offset the expense of housing the prisoners.

Corporations are being compensated for the labor of the prisoners who are paid about TWENTY-FIVE (25) CENTS AN HOUR.

I bet you one who talks about corporate control in this country.
 
This isn't about breaking the law, it's about justice, fairness, and hypocrisy.

bullshit... it is about you calling prisoners slaves because it makes you feel warm and cozy to do so.

If you have no problem with the disparity in sentencing, the US having more prisoners that all totalitarian nations and all other nations in the world, or the hypocrisy of pointing fingers at China for what is legally practiced in America, then there is no point to our discussion.

Since you are far too ignorant on the subject... why don't you take a look at Bobs post.... then tell us about what happens to those convicted in those totalitarian states.

That's true if you're black, but not necessarily true if you're white. If you need statistics and studies, don't believe mine, do the research yourself.

Ahhh yes, the ever present race card... again, it is more an issue of wealth than race. A rich black man will get off just like a rich white man... ask OJ about that. Yes, the crime rates and convictions are disproportionate. I am not arguing that. But the bottom line is they are still BREAKING THE FUCKING LAW. Work to fix the causes of the diproportionate stats. But don't bitch to me that a prisoner is being made to work. Because THAT has nothing to do with it.

"At the same time it will cost taxpayers jobs .. and is saving taxpayers money the focus of the Justice System, or is justice."

Bullshit. These jobs would otherwise be shipped over to India/China etc... because they are typically the jobs where the US worker has priced themselves out of the mix....


NOTE: What do you think this is?

Well gee... I am going with the same whiny little bitch session you had the last time you posted this exact same crap.

Justice is the point .. which is why you don't get it.

What a load of crap. Justice is someone going to jail for a crime they committed. Which is something YOU do not get. Just because the wealthy and celebrities get away with shit doesn't change the fact that these individuals STILL BROKE THE FUCKING LAW.

Is giving probabtion to the white guy convicted of the exact same crime as a non-white person who is sent to jail .. is that justice? .. I sense you don't really care .. then you should stop your bitchin' about what people who do care do about it.

Is it fair? NO. But for the individual that broke the law that did get sent to prison it is most definitely justice. If I didn't care, I wouldn't be wasting my time with you. But I get the sense that because I am white, nothing I say is going to matter to a racist prick like you anyway.

No one is asking you to feel sorry and frankly, not to even get involved. This is for people of conscience who are appalled by what America is becoming and want to do something about it.

I have no problem with your apathy.

Right.... now explain to all of us what you are "doing about it". You have yet to show why prisoners should not have to work to help pay off the debt they are accumulating by being in prison. All you want to do is blame the corps and the white man and throw down as many race cards as you can. THAT is not "doing" anything.
 
Corporations are being compensated for the labor of the prisoners who are paid about TWENTY-FIVE (25) CENTS AN HOUR.

I bet you one who talks about corporate control in this country.

Show me your numbers on that. Show me the total the company pays to the prison vs. the prisoners.
 
Slavery, the Prison/Industrial Complex, and American Hypocrisy

August 20, 2007

The United States has less than 5% of the world’s population, but we incarcerate 25% of all the prisoners in the world. We leave China, Russia, North Korea, Iran, and all the other nations we like to look down our noses at far in the dust. We not only lockup more of our citizens than all totalitarian nations, we even lockup more people than China which has more than 4 times the number of Americans, and India which has almost 4 times the number of Americans, and Iran COMBINED. The US not only leads in the numbers of prisoners but far outpace China when measured per capita. We rank 1st among all nations with 715 prisoners per 100,000 people. China ranks 71st with 119 prisoners per 100,000 people.
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_pri-crime-prisoners
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_pri_per_cap-crime-prisoners-per-capita

US leaders love to point out China as a violator of human rights and their penchant for slave and prison labor. While it’s principled to point out abuses by the Chinese, Americans should also recognize that slavery is not only legal in the US, it’s also practiced. The 13th Amendment authorizes it, “Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.” The key word here is “except” and being convicted of a crime in the United States is that exception.

In today’s America, drug laws have become the new Jim Crow laws, the prison/industrial complex has become the new plantation, and the warden has become the new overseer. America’s newest slaves aren’t picking cotton. They’re assembling computers, making women’s lingerie, booking airline flights over the phone, telemarketing for major corporations, and doing all kinds of tasks that free Americans used to be employed at doing. What appeared to be a normal plant closing by U.S. Technologies when it sold its electronics plant in Austin, was actually the company relocating its operations to a nearby Austin prison. One hundred and fifty “free” employees lost their jobs to the new slaves.

If you book a flight on TWA over the phone, a prisoner may be taking your order. If you buy yourself or your loved one something from Victoria Secret, it may have come from a prison in South Carolina. Corporations like Chevron, Boeing, IBM, Motorola, Honda, Toys R Us, Compaq, Dell, Texas Instruments, Honeywell, Hewett-Packard, Microsoft, Nordstrom’s, Revlon, Macy's, Pierre Cardin, Target Stores, and AT&T are a few of the ever-growing list of companies that are, or have at one time, used this kind of slave labor. Federal prisons operate under the trade name Unicor and use their prisoners to make everything from lawn furniture to congressional desks. Federal safety and health standards do not protect prison labor, nor do the National Labor Relations Board policies nor does the minimum wage apply. Corporations that use slave labor don’t pay overtime, sick days, pensions, and don’t have to deal with unions for this work. Prison/slaves are paid about 25 cents an hour.

Who are these new slaves?

The vast majority of illegal drug users, importers, and distributors in America are white. Whites make up 72% of illegal drug users, but, the greatest percentage of those who are incarcerated for drugs are black. While whites are getting probation, blacks and Hispanics are being sentenced to prison, sometimes for the exact same crime whites got probation for. Disparities in sentencing is well-known and documented and can be confirmed by the Department of Justice, DEA, FBI, Human Rights Watch, the Sentencing Project, Amnesty International, and a host of academic and social organization studies and research. The injustice of the Justice System is devastating communities and families all across America.

African-Americans have been cast as the icon for illegal drug use in America even though they comprise between 12% – 14% of illegal drug users, about proportional to their percentage of the population. The “war on drugs” appears to be a war on African-Americans.

It appears that the new slaves look a lot like the old ones.

African-Americans are the most loyal constituency the Democratic Party has by far, but the Democratic Party will not adequately address this critical issue for fear of being seen as “soft on crime.” Thus, the Democratic Party itself perpetuates the stereotype. The biggest explosion of Americans going to prison happened under Bill Clinton. Under Clinton, more people went to federal and state prisons than under any president in American history. Clinton also signed a bill that prevented U.S. Sentencing Commission amendments to equalize the penalties for crack and powder cocaine from taking effect.

The disparities in sentencing and probation are well-known and were certainly known to Bill Clinton. Then Attorney General Janet Reno said the sentencing disparity is unfair. "Clearly I think [penalties] should be equalized with respect to possession offenses," she said. "And equally clearly, I don't think the 100-to-1 ratio is fair." She also said that people who provide powder cocaine to those who cook it into crack should get "the more appropriately stiff sentence than the person who distributes the crack.” Under Clinton, the federal 3 strikes law was enacted and many states soon followed with similar legislation of their own.

Eighty-five percent of those sentenced under the “three strikes you’re out” law in California faced prison for a nonviolent offense. The law requires a mandatory 25 years to life sentence. Two years after the law went into effect, there were twice as many people imprisoned under the three-strikes law for possession of marijuana as for murder, rape and kidnapping combined. More than 80 percent of those sentenced under the “three strikes” law are African-American and Latino. It was supposed to be meant to protect society from violent and dangerous criminals, but is fueling the prison/industrial complex with those caught for non-violent crimes. Up to 75% of American prisoners are locked-up for non-violent crimes.

Here In Georgia, it was the democratic candidate for Governor in the last election, Mark Taylor, who used his capacity as then Lt. Governor to sponsor SB 400, a draconian piece of legislation from the dark ages that treats children as adults in criminal courts. Children convicted under this law usually serve their time in adult prisons and SB 440 allows children to be sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole. Ninety percent (90%) of children sentenced under SB 440 and its companion legislation, SB 441, are African American. I'm sure he was real shocked when blacks did not go to the polls to support his run for Governor. After all, he's a democrat.

During the past two decades roughly a thousand new prisons and jails have been built in the United States. Nevertheless, America's prisons are more overcrowded now than when the building spree began, and the inmate population continues to increase by 50,000 to 80,000 people a year In 1977 the inmate population of California was 19,600. Today it’s over 170,000, which amounts to more inmates in its jails and prisons than do France, Great Britain, Germany, Japan, Singapore, and the Netherlands combined. After spending $5.2 billion on prison construction over the past fifteen years, California now has not only the largest but also the most overcrowded prison system in the United States, and for the first time among large states, California will spend more on its prisons than on its public universities.

Profiting from slavery

Prisons are rising all over America. It’s a fast rising growth industry with investors on Wall Street and corporations we all know are paying peanuts to prisoner/slaves so they don’t have to employ those who buy their products. Even when crime goes down, jail population still goes up. Prison labor has its roots in slavery. After the Civil War ended, blacks were imprisoned on a variety of trumped up reasons and were then loaned or hired out to plantations and farms and all would share in the profit, except the prisoner/slave of course. That same “hiring out” of prisoners is still practiced in the United States today.

The prison/industrial complex is a multi-billion dollar industry complete with lobbyists, trade shows, and conventions. It profits from an evil in the US that neither democrats nor republicans will seek to remedy.

Money is the hole in the concept of democracy. Inject enough money into the system and that system will morph into a plutocracy, such as exists in America today. The corporate will has replaced the will and conscience of the people. Democrats, even more than republicans, have abdicated their responsibility to their most loyal constituency.

As I was growing up and learning the history of slavery in America, I used to wonder how slavery could exist here for more than 250 years. How was that possible? Where were the good people? The answer to that is obvious in America today. The good people simply do nothing. They pretend the evil doesn’t exist. Slavery exists today in America, and again, the good people do nothing.
Where does 'nationmaster' get their statistics?

According to the DOJ, in 2005 we had only 488 per 100K in prison. Which significantly changes the results.

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/ascii/pjim05.txt <<-Mid-Year report for 2005.
 
Show me your numbers on that. Show me the total the company pays to the prison vs. the prisoners.

There are statistics that validate this truth to be found everywhere.

Given that we don't like each other and I doubt if you believe or trust my sources and given that this information is so readily availble, why do you do a bit of research yourself. I welcome it.
 
And cypress, think about what big business is spending to lobby for open immigration laws. And you know how torn I am about that, I'm not completely against them, but I hate to see them used for exploitative reasons, and also, there is a problem with depressed wages. But, putting that debate aside, big business is lobbying for that because it's cheap labor.

So, what will they do for almost free labor? Would they not work to keep these draconian drug laws and 3 strike laws, on the books so that their supply of free labor is not threatened? Doesn't that sound like a hell to you? I mean, that's a serious problem there. That upsets me to the core. I don't want to hear bullshit about "learning a trade" or "personal responsibility" when we are talking about putting young men and women in jail for 25 to life, 25 TO LIFE, to be labor horses for big business. And why? Because they smoke pot? No.

No.

Excellent points, all.

In fact, I agree. I think prisons have become such a big industry in the US, that it almost has a political constituency, and people who have a vested interest in massive amounts of incarceration. I mean how much do we pay constuction contractors to build prisons, how much do some economially devastated small communities rely on prisons for employment and wages, and how much pork do congressmen get to send home by constructing new prisons?

Its almost as if its a cottage industry in to itself, that goes far beyond the simple principle of law and order. And you know what? Given a choice between legalizing drugs, and having to close hundres of prisons and seeing thousands of their constitutents go unemployed, I'm sure a politician will vote to keep draconian drug laws. For reasons that have nothing to do with a just society based on the rational use of law and order.
 
I fully understand that Darla. Please explain to me what you find morally repugnant, because I do not understand.

1) I break the law
2) I am convicted of doing so and sent to prison
3) I work for company "x" and learn a skill set
4) Company "x" pays the prison for my labor
5) Prison uses the wages to pay for the expense of keeping me in prison for the crime I committed


The odds of you being arrested, prosecuted and convicted are much lower if you're affluent and white.

To the enlightened mind, that is simply wrong.
 
Right.... now explain to all of us what you are "doing about it". You have yet to show why prisoners should not have to work to help pay off the debt they are accumulating by being in prison. All you want to do is blame the corps and the white man and throw down as many race cards as you can. THAT is not "doing" anything.

I neither have to explain or show you a goddamn thing. Who in the fuck are you?

Any attempt to change the course of bad policy begins with awareness. Most Americans have no idea that we hold 25% of the world's prisoners or that we incarcerate more per capita than China, or that American prisoners work as slaves.

If you have a problem with what I'm doing than that's just too goddamn bad, isn't it? Get the fuck outta here with that pompous bullshit as if I have to answer to you.
 
There are statistics that validate this truth to be found everywhere.
.

Since they are found everywhere, start posting links to ALL those wonderful sites. Try to go with a governmental site or a link to the actual prison financials. Or even go with the financials of one of those evil corps that are using the prison labor force.
 
Excellent points, all.

In fact, I agree. I think prisons have become such a big industry in the US, that it almost has a political constituency, and people who have a vested interest in massive amounts of incarceration. I mean how much do we pay constuction contractors to build prisons, how much do some economially devastated small communities rely on prisons for employment and wages, and how much pork do congressmen get to send home by constructing new prisons?

Its almost as if its a cottage industry in to itself, that goes far beyond the simple principle of law and order. And you know what? Given a choice between legalizing drugs, and having to close hundres of prisons and seeing thousands of their constitutents go unemployed, I'm sure a politician will vote to keep draconian drug laws. For reasons that have nothing to do with a just society based on the rational use of law and order.

Exactly. I think that the more and more people who are made aware of it, the less and less those "soft on crime" tags will work, and then maybe something could get done about it.
 
YourBlackness, you're missing something really crucial. The whole country of china is like being in one big prison. And they may not lock you up, they may send you to a "corporate campus" run by their cousin li, or just shoot you in the head in the middle of the night, or just sell your organs on the black market and erase all evidence of your existence.
 
I neither have to explain or show you a goddamn thing. Who in the fuck are you?

Any attempt to change the course of bad policy begins with awareness. Most Americans have no idea that we hold 25% of the world's prisoners or that we incarcerate more per capita than China, or that American prisoners work as slaves.

If you have a problem with what I'm doing than that's just too goddamn bad, isn't it? Get the fuck outta here with that pompous bullshit as if I have to answer to you.

yes, but trying to spin the issue isn't going to get people to listen. Try telling them the WHOLE story and perhaps they will join you in trying to solve the problem.

Because again you ignore the point Bob made earlier. Many of those other countries simply execute criminals or they maim them and send them back out into the population. A different kind of Justice.

And again... show me how American prisoners are "slaves"?

You keep spouting off about it, but refuse to address my points at all. You are not going to win to many people to your cause if you refuse to actually debate the issue.
 
1) I break the law
2) I am convicted of doing so and sent to prison
3) I work for company "x" and learn a skill set
4) Company "x" pays the prison for my labor
5) Prison uses the wages to pay for the expense of keeping me in prison for the crime I committed

Explain to me oh great BAC... how is the above "slavery"???
 
Since they are found everywhere, start posting links to ALL those wonderful sites. Try to go with a governmental site or a link to the actual prison financials. Or even go with the financials of one of those evil corps that are using the prison labor force.

OR .. you can walk your ass to the edge of a cliff and jump off.

The good news is that sane people get the point .. which is all I ask.
 
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