How can anyone not see that this is morally wrong to begin with?
Its called being a conservative
Slavery, the Prison/Industrial Complex, and American Hypocrisy
- Thread starter blackascoal
- Start date
How can anyone not see that this is morally wrong to begin with?
Its called being a conservative
I'm frankly astonished that cons are in favor of using prisoners at slave wages, to pad the bottom line of corporations. It is antithetical to everything the free market stands for: it gives these corps an unfair advantage over competitors in terms of complying with wage and worker laws.
Second, Its morally wrong. Not that that appears to matter to cons.
And there are other, more ethical solutions, to providing work and rehabilitation to prisoners.
Your first link gives the numbers that I figured mathematically:
1.5 million
Number of inmates held in state and federal prisons at yearend 2005.
using that number, there are only 488 per 100K in Prison in the US, yet your originating link gives the number at 715. This is nearly double the number, WHERE DO THEY GET THEIR NUMBERS?
It appears to me your link of origination of the thread exaggerates their numbers.
Your second link gives this number:
March 15, 1999 show that the number of prisoners in America has more than tripled over the last two decades from 500,000 to 1.8 million
But no sourcing as to where it came from. The justice department data did not show that there were 1.8 million in prison or jail in 1999, in fact there were less than there are currently in jail at that time.
(Again, I provided links to that data from the DOJ itself above.)
Your third link:
According to the latest statistics from the U.S. Department of Justice, more than two million men and women are now behind bars in the United States.1 The country that holds itself out as the "land of freedom" incarcerates a higher percentage of its people than any other country. The human costs — wasted lives, wrecked families, troubled children — are incalculable, as are the adverse social, economic and political consequences of weakened communities, diminished opportunities for economic mobility, and extensive disenfranchisement.
(Again the data is severely exaggerated, I provided the link to the DOJ address above, and again, the first one is accurate, these are exaggerated.)
(Because I was editing as some people were reading, I have reposted this post in a more complete form.)
Each of your sources says it gets its data from the DOJ, but they do not coincide with the reported figures from the DOJ, it appears that they just make it up.
I'm frankly astonished that cons are in favor of using prisoners at slave wages, to pad the bottom line of corporations. It is antithetical to everything the free market stands for: it gives these corps an unfair advantage over competitors in terms of complying with wage and worker laws.
Second, Its morally wrong. Not that that appears to matter to cons.
And there are other, more ethical solutions, to providing work and rehabilitation to prisoners.
Exactly. Well said.
BAC, here you can find the actual data from the DOJ from 1995 until 2005, compare it to your link's articles (all of which say they use this data), you will find a HUGE discrepancy. Why do they exaggerate the numbers?
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pubalp2.htm#pjmidyear
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pubalp2.htm#pjmidyear
blackascoal
The Force is With Me
I would hope that the DOJ would not be their only source of data.
For instance in 2003 the DOJreported that there were 343 prisoners per 100,000, yet Andrew Coyle, director of the International Centre for Prison Studies at the University of London and a leading authority on incarceration, reported 702 prisoners per 100,000.
I imagine they massage data as the DOJ does.
There seems to liitle dispute that there are over 2 million people locked up even from the DOJ ... nor that there are more than 7 million Americans in the prison probabtion system.
blackascoal
The Force is With Me
What makes you have such faith in DOJ numbers?
Each of the articles you linked to said they got their data from DOJ reporting. I actually looked at the DOJ reporting and found their numbers to be off by quite a large margin in all cases except the first link you gave me. 1.5 million is accurate according to their report, that would be about 488 per 100K, not 715. That is an exaggerated figure.
It is what the articles SAID THEY WERE USING!
They say they are using those numbers, but then I find that the numbers are not what they reported.
And what makes you have such faith in apparently made up numbers?
blackascoal
The Force is With Me
Published two days ago ..
Jailing Nation: How Did Our Prison System Become Such a Nightmare?
http://www.alternet.org/rights/60065/
Jailing Nation: How Did Our Prison System Become Such a Nightmare?
http://www.alternet.org/rights/60065/
This one uses the numbers of Parolees too. That is definitely a "massage" when it says that they are all in prison in your first one.
Your article on your first post says this:
We rank 1st among all nations with 715 prisoners per 100,000 people.
Yet we find that it is actually 488 of 100,000, and only if you include parolees and those on probation can you reach the numbers. Not all of them are imprisoned. The data is not just "massaged" it is simply inaccurate.
We rank 1st among all nations with 715 prisoners per 100,000 people.
Yet we find that it is actually 488 of 100,000, and only if you include parolees and those on probation can you reach the numbers. Not all of them are imprisoned. The data is not just "massaged" it is simply inaccurate.
blackascoal
The Force is With Me
Are parolees also used in measurement with other countries? Woud they measure the US based on one standard and other countries based on another.
What you're arguing here in the per capita rate .. but there seems to be no argument, even from you, that we hold the highest number of prisoners in the world .. even using DOJ statistics.
You can haggle with the numbers, I have no problem with that .. but the points don't change in the least.
Disparity in sentencing
Slave labor in US prisons
Drug war a war on blacks
US hypocrisy
We can continue haggling with the numbers if you like
blackascoal
The Force is With Me
You say not all of them are in prison .. how many are?
No, what I am saying is that the numbers on your first one are exaggerated by claiming that they are all in prison when they are not. It either includes those that are on parole and probation, who by definition are not in prison, or it just makes up the numbers.
The only source they have for the numbers they quote is the DOJ. What other source is there?
I distrust people that directly mislead, I distrust sites that directly mislead as well. That is misleading, and inaccurate.
About 488 of 100K as reported by the source they say they get the information from.
Yet we find that it is actually 488 of 100,000, and only if you include parolees and those on probation
I think y'all are talking past each other.
The 488/100,000 DOJ number is for those in Federal and State jurisdiction.
I don't think they're including local and county jails in those stats.
The point is, our incarceration rate is an order of magnitude higher than other developed democracies. That should be a national embarrassment to us all.
I'm frankly astonished that cons are in favor of using prisoners at slave wages, to pad the bottom line of corporations. It is antithetical to everything the free market stands for: it gives these corps an unfair advantage over competitors in terms of complying with wage and worker laws.
Second, Its morally wrong. Not that that appears to matter to cons.
And there are other, more ethical solutions, to providing work and rehabilitation to prisoners.
I'm with you 110%. That's just wrong on every level. Any work that they do should serve the people. Incentivizing imprisonment should raise a red flag if you're reasonable.
Just as weapons inspectors not finding any evidence of a WMD program should raise a flag of such not existing.....sigh.....but hey, we can't all be insightful liberals
Actually, the states are required to report on those. They are included.
blackascoal
The Force is With Me
I have no problem with your distrust, however, using DOJ statistics we're still number one in the world and all the other elements of the issue remain the same. If your distrust of an international organization reknowed for its work on prisons system throughout the world causes you to dismiss the issue entirely, then nothing is lost because you were never on board in the first place.
It is your perogative to choose issues important to you. I have no illusions about getting everybody to act, understand, or even care. I'm happy with the responses of those who do.