The original numbers are actually short a bit on prisoners. But it is actually around 738 to 100K...
I feel better, I was growing frustrated.
Slavery, the Prison/Industrial Complex, and American Hypocrisy
- Thread starter blackascoal
- Start date
I feel better, I was growing frustrated.
You actually can't type the words "bac and cypress were right" can you? lol
After BAC and I ran a gauntlet of numerous posts calling us "disingenous", it turned out (from Damo's OWN link - lol) that BAC and I were right all along.
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The Almighty
What YOU cannot seem to grasp is that it is NONSENSE to call them slaves. Yes, they are not being paid directly much, if anything. But the corporations contract with the prison and provide the PRISON with funds in exchange for the work. The prisons use that money to offset the costs of the running the prison. Thus, the prisoners are paying a share of the costs rather than having the taxpayers pay it all. WHAT part of that is so hard to comprehend.
They ARE NOT SLAVES. They work to pay off a debt to society for the crimes they committed.
You are making the assumption that the laws were created to put more people in jail to create a cheaper work force. That is purely supposition on your part with no evidence to support it. You are also acting as though only corporations lobby the corrupt idiots in DC. ALSO not the case.
NOW PLEASE NOTE THIS... I AGREE WITH THE FACT THAT SOMETHING NEEDS TO BE DONE ABOUT THE PROPORTION OF BLACKS IN PRISON. I ALSO AGREE THE DRUG LAWS SHOULD BE ABOLISHED. BUT NEITHER OF THOSE FACTS CHANGE THE FACT THAT..... THEY STILL BROKE THE CURRENT LAWS... THEY ARE FOLLOWING THIS PATTERN....
1) I break the law
2) I am convicted of doing so and sent to prison
3) I work for company "x" and learn a skill set
4) Company "x" pays the prison for my labor
5) Prison uses the wages to pay for the expense of keeping me in prison for the crime I committed
WHAT about the above makes you think it is slavery?
I'm sorry I did not note that you said this:
"I AGREE WITH THE FACT THAT SOMETHING NEEDS TO BE DONE ABOUT THE PROPORTION OF BLACKS IN PRISON. I ALSO AGREE THE DRUG LAWS SHOULD BE ABOLISHED. "
I did not mean to upset you.
SF, have you read anything about the history of peonage and chain gangs? This in my opinion, is a form of slavery, and to allow corporate profit from prison labor, is only to invite abuses both physical and mental, and to ensure that the laws you agree should be changed, do not ever get changed.
Don't worry about it man.
I been wrong plenty of times.
You know, I just had to spike the ball in the end zone, though.
You missed a step...
0) Laws are passed to target certain classes and imprison them for victimless crimes.
I didn't call you disingenuous, I asked where the numbers were from because these weren't adding up.After BAC and I ran a gauntlet of numerous posts calling us "disingenous", it turned out (from Damo's OWN link - lol) that BAC and I were right all along.
But yes, those numbers were more accurate.
Thorn
Member
I think that the law was rewritten to abolish chain gangs, wasn't it? Now the procedures may be different here, but when I worked in the system (during my school years) prisoners had to apply to programs that permitted them to work at something; they had to earn the privilege to do this, something like working in the prison library or clinic, etc. Is it possible that something similar occurs here?
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The Almighty
Yes, I have read about chain gangs... and certainly understand that like any system, abuses can happen. But these prisoners are not held without access to family or lawyers. They are still protected with most basic human rights (other than freedom of course). If there is abuse, they have recourse. Slaves did not have recourse or rights. They were treated as property. In the past, chain gangs were treated in such a manner. But not today. They may be required to do hard labor, but hard labor does not equate to slavery either.
Regardless of the three strikes law.... a law was still broken. Even if it was just for pot (which again I agree also should be changed).... it is still a law that they broke. If they are sentenced to jail (again, the fact that sentences are not uniform for the same crime needs to be addressed) then they get sent to jail. While there, they cost the taxpayers money to keep them there. Having a job that pays the prison, helps the PRISONERS to pay for a portion of their incarceration. Again, not slavery.
Like anything, abuses can happen. It is our job to make sure we eliminate as many of those situations as we can.
I know we disagree on the whole "slavery" point here, but to me, bottom line, trying to equate prison labor to slavery is not going to do anything to solve the problems of the idiotic drug laws or the unfair way sentences discriminate against the poor. (it is my contention that it is lack of wealth and not race that is the factor here.... not in every case to be sure, but in the majority.... I think it can appear to be a race issue due to a disproportionate number of minorities in poverty vs. whites.... just my opinion)
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The Almighty
I do think some states have incentives to get prisoners to work... ie... faster "good behavior" credits (which can help reduce sentence length). Other states require the prisoners to work or they lose priveleges (which is kind of the reverse). I am not familiar with every state system, but I would guess and say there is a wide variety of the way they are run.
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The Almighty
Do not disagree with that... as I said, those laws need to be changed. But bottom line, those laws are currently on the books. You, myself and everyone else has the choice to obey the laws or not. If you break the law and are caught.... you go through those five.
If you dislike the law and think it should be changed, you cannot simply ignore the law because you dislike it... you have to get it changed.
Ok, I understand. We agree except you have a problem with using the word slavery, it even seems to offend you. And we also disagree on it ever being right to use prison labor for any kind of profit. I agree with Tiana on that. It raises a red flag, and Cypress' idea of public service is a much better one.
I really don't know Thorn, it's probably different everywhere. There is a prison in Arizona in fact, that is notorious for all kinds of really sick abuses. Run by some podunk sheriff with serious mental problems, but his constitutents love him. It wouldn't fly here. So I don't know.
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The Almighty
Slavery definitely offends me. To a lesser degree, calling something slavery that is not slavery also offends me... as I think it an insult to those who truly are slaves, with no rights and no recourse to abuses.
We certainly disagree on the use of prison labor by corporations. Especially if they are jobs that could prove useful to those prisoners who have a shot at leaving prison. Not to mention that those very jobs would likely be outsourced if not making use of the prison labor. It keeps the money here, in our economy. It also reduces the amount of debt taxpayers incur due to the prison population. (obviously if we legalize pot etc... that would also reduce the overall costs to taxpayers)
Thorn
Member
I remember seeing something about that, about a year or so ago! I thought he'd been removed from office ... ? That really was awful!
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The Almighty
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The Almighty
anytime thorn...
that is taking it to the extreme. Obviously still legal, but walking damn close to the line.
that is taking it to the extreme. Obviously still legal, but walking damn close to the line.
Yes that is him, and Thorn he was not removed to my knowledge, though I would be very happy to learn differently.