Socialism Vs Capitalism

Cypress said:
So let's be like socialist Norway. Lower income people there have access to high quality universal healthcare, susidized child daycare, mandatory paid naternity leave and paid sick leave, mandatory paid vacation. You get all that awesome socialist stuff by paying taxes
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All of that's fine, but it would require cutting a lot of spending in other parts of the government budget in order to keep deficits from getting even worse. Seeing as how neither party seems eager to reduce military spending, good luck with that.
 
Woko Haram said:
There are plenty of heavily unionized areas of the US. A lot of the unions involved are incredibly corrupt.
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Doubtless, like the rest of capitalism. The key point is for the members to see that their union is under their own control and representing their interests, which steady union-busting by the nazis has made difficult. It would be nice to have similar ambitions for the centres of capitalism, but I'm afraid there's no hope there: if we want to live we're going to have to see those off altogether and replaced with a democratic socialist system.
 
archives said:
Get ready, if they respond, you are going to get a lot of Venezuela in the next few exchanges

No nation is one or the other, every country has a mixed economy, the US has been part socialistic since the 19th Century, the whole right wing conspiracy regarding socialism is absurd
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Then why do you guys hate being called socialists?

Sing it loud and proud baby
 
Teflon Don said:
Then why do you guys hate being called socialists?

Sing it loud and proud baby
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What you have in America is a pretend classical capitalism, based on a very inefficient version of the system able to get by though military power and the exploitation of the rest of the world. Essentially, the only really special things about American capitalism are a vast sale of bang-bangs to individuals and a lack of decent health-care, both based on a deep lack of interest in human life as compared with heaps of money.
 
Hello Woko Haram,

Woko Haram said:
Someone should tell Sweden about this. They've been implementing capitalist reforms for the last 20 years or so. They seem to be doing ok economically, however.

Norway is hardly socialist in the Cuban sense, however. Worker protections and government intervention are nothing new for Western economies, but Norway's success is largely due to the fact that they still are very competitive in a lot of economic sectors. That's from capitalistic traits, not socialist ones.

For any system that relies heavily on government spending for public amenities, you have to generate the income used for these expenses from the private sector. That's why Norway succeeds and Venezuela has not.
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If you want to know how capitalistic a country is just compare the level of wealth inequality.

Corporate Executives in Europe earn 15-20 times the average worker income.

In the USA is something like 300 - 400 times the AVERAGE worker pay.

That's the problem.
 
Hello Woko Haram,

Woko Haram said:
There are plenty of heavily unionized areas of the US. A lot of the unions involved are incredibly corrupt.
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Wrong. Union membership in America has reached an all-time low since the heyday of unions in America.

The power of big money and government corruption has been routinely and effectively squashing unions.

The only unions they have not attacked are police unions that force governments to hire back officers fired for abuse.
 
Hello Woko Haram,

Woko Haram said:
Corporate law has plenty of flaws, but what you're referencing is irrelevant. One of the main issues with corporations is with regard to liability. If the "corporate veil" didn't exist, then the individuals running a corporation could be held more liable for all sorts of things and their personal finances could be penalized. This would lead to more conservative choices by corporations, and CEOs would be more careful about how to handle investments and things like pollution.
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Corporations have stolen our Constitution. The American revolution included rejecting the power of corporations. Corporate charters were extremely limited in the original United States.

Originally, corporations were only granted a right to exist for a set purpose or function, and only for a set duration. When the allotted time expired, the corporation was dissolved. Officers of the corporation were held liable for laws broken by the corporation. The punishment for a corporation messing up badly was for the corporation to be dissolved by the government.

Over the years, big money has eroded the power of We the People to limit and control corporations.

The government used to tell corporations what to do.

Now it is the corporations that tell government what to do.
 
PoliTalker said:
Hello Woko Haram,



Corporations have stolen our Constitution. The American revolution included rejecting the power of corporations. Corporate charters were extremely limited in the original United States.

Originally, corporations were only granted a right to exist for a set purpose or function, and only for a set duration. When the allotted time expired, the corporation was dissolved. Officers of the corporation were held liable for laws broken by the corporation. The punishment for a corporation messing up badly was for the corporation to be dissolved by the government.

Over the years, big money has eroded the power of We the People to limit and control corporations.

The government used to tell corporations what to do.

Now it is the corporations that tell government what to do.
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You're a rambling imbecile
 
PoliTalker said:
Hello Woko Haram,



Wrong. Union membership in America has reached an all-time low since the heyday of unions in America.

The power of big money and government corruption has been routinely and effectively squashing unions.

The only unions they have not attacked are police unions that force governments to hire back officers fired for abuse.
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And teachers who are a HUGE leftist voting block. STFU
 
Penderyn said:
Doubtless, like the rest of capitalism. The key point is for the members to see that their union is under their own control and representing their interests, which steady union-busting by the nazis has made difficult. It would be nice to have similar ambitions for the centres of capitalism, but I'm afraid there's no hope there: if we want to live we're going to have to see those off altogether and replaced with a democratic socialist system.
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What I see with unions, at least in the US, is that they focus on three things primarily:

Getting their members more pay and benefits to do the same job in the same way. Most unions do nothing to better train members or get them promotions. They will protect incompetence in their ranks so long as the dues get paid.

Enriching the union leadership while increasing their political pull. In this the membership are just paying to give the leaders these things while the leadership really doesn't give a shit about the rank and file.

Perpetuate an Us versus Them attitude towards the company and management.

Why they've lost members and power is because of all three while corporations (not all but most) now see paying reasonable wages and giving good benefits up front eliminate the need for a union and their employees have figured that out. This has occurred partially because the nature of work in America has evolved from the Industrial Age to the Electronics Age. There is an ever decreasing need for strong backs and weak minds doing some menial task all day long. That's what computers and industrial controls are for.
 
Teflon Don said:
What is this “unfettered” capitalism you speak of?

Name five things in our lives that aren’t regulated in some way shape or form by the federal, state or local governments?

Just five. That’s it
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Hm. I thought of three.

Workers have no protections or rights unless they join a union.

Large drug corporations can charge anything they want for their drugs. A drug that cost pennies to produce might sell for hundreds of dollars.

Large corporations are able to monopolize an industry.

With effort I'm sure I could get two more.
 
T. A. Gardner said:
What I see with unions, at least in the US, is that they focus on three things primarily:

Getting their members more pay and benefits to do the same job in the same way. Most unions do nothing to better train members or get them promotions. They will protect incompetence in their ranks so long as the dues get paid.

Enriching the union leadership while increasing their political pull. In this the membership are just paying to give the leaders these things while the leadership really doesn't give a shit about the rank and file.

Perpetuate an Us versus Them attitude towards the company and management.

Why they've lost members and power is because of all three while corporations (not all but most) now see paying reasonable wages and giving good benefits up front eliminate the need for a union and their employees have figured that out. This has occurred partially because the nature of work in America has evolved from the Industrial Age to the Electronics Age. There is an ever decreasing need for strong backs and weak minds doing some menial task all day long. That's what computers and industrial controls are for.
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more precisely, they've given enough for a couple generations, sometimes voluntarily, sometines through the labor movement pressure, so that people have been lulled into a false sense of security about true rapacious corporate nature.
 
Michael_Panetta said:
Hm. I thought of three.

Workers have no protections or rights unless they join a union.

Large drug corporations can charge anything they want for their drugs. A drug that cost pennies to produce might sell for hundreds of dollars.

Large corporations are able to monopolize an industry.

With effort I'm sure I could get two more.
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Clearly you didn't understand the question. I asked you to name five things in our lives that aren't regulated by the government.

1) You said workers have no protections without unions - Well we can blow that up very quickly. Ever heard of OSHA? EEOC? The FLSA (Fair Labor Standards Act)?

2) You said drug companies can charge ANYTHING they want for their drugs. - Ever heard of the FDA? There is no more regulated industry than the pharmaceutical industry. They can't even put out marketing pieces without the FDA approving it. Medicaid regulates pricing of drugs through formulary management

3) You said large corporations are able to monopolize an industry - This is probably the most laughable example. Ever hear of the FTC?

Now go back and re-read the question. You failed miserably, but I will at least give you credit for trying even thought it was lame as fuck
 
Teflon Don said:
Clearly you didn't understand the question. I asked you to name five things in our lives that aren't regulated by the government.

1) You said workers have no protections without unions - Well we can blow that up very quickly. Ever heard of OSHA? EEOC? The FLSA (Fair Labor Standards Act)?

2) You said drug companies can charge ANYTHING they want for their drugs. - Ever heard of the FDA? There is no more regulated industry than the pharmaceutical industry. They can't even put out marketing pieces without the FDA approving it. Medicaid regulates pricing of drugs through formulary management

3) You said large corporations are able to monopolize an industry - This is probably the most laughable example. Ever hear of the FTC?

Now go back and re-read the question. You failed miserably, but I will at least give you credit for trying even thought it was lame as fuck
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You seriously think OSHA and FSLA mean shit? Try working in any warehouse in America and you'll probably witness an OSHA inspector getting paid off at some point. I've seen it more times than I care to count. Same with food inspectors in the restaurant industry.

Oh, and laborers get cheated out of pay ALL THE TIME.
 
Michael_Panetta said:
You seriously think OSHA and FSLA mean shit? Try working in any warehouse in America and you'll probably witness an OSHA inspector getting paid off at some point. I've seen it more times than I care to count. Same with food inspectors in the restaurant industry.

Oh, and laborers get cheated out of pay ALL THE TIME.
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No wonder you are a Marxist. You have poor reading comprehension and are extremely gullible.

I didn’t ask if they were effective. I asked you to name five things the government doesn’t regulate.

It is a simple question and you are failing miserably.
 
Penderyn said:
Doubtless, like the rest of capitalism. The key point is for the members to see that their union is under their own control and representing their interests, which steady union-busting by the nazis has made difficult. It would be nice to have similar ambitions for the centres of capitalism, but I'm afraid there's no hope there: if we want to live we're going to have to see those off altogether and replaced with a democratic socialist system.
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Good luck with all that.
 
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