Socialism Vs Capitalism

[Saudade]

Hello Woko Haram,



If you want to know how capitalistic a country is just compare the level of wealth inequality.

Corporate Executives in Europe earn 15-20 times the average worker income.

In the USA is something like 300 - 400 times the AVERAGE worker pay.

That's the problem.

Wealth inequality has little to do with the extent of capitalism in an economy.

Singapore is considered much freer than us in terms of the market, and yet, they have less wealth inequality. New Zealand is also considered freer in the market than us, and it has far less wealth inequality.

If you look at Gini coefficients across the world, the countries with the most wealth disparity aren't exactly the most capitalistic. They're often the most cronyist and not very free in the market, usually due to government meddling. South Africa currently has the worst wealth inequality in the world, and it doesn't rank very well in terms of the freedom of its market.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_of_Economic_Freedom

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gini_coefficient

 

[Saudade]

Hello Woko Haram,



Wrong. Union membership in America has reached an all-time low since the heyday of unions in America.

The power of big money and government corruption has been routinely and effectively squashing unions.

The only unions they have not attacked are police unions that force governments to hire back officers fired for abuse.

In the US overall, union membership is down, but that doesn't change the fact that certain parts of the country are still heavily unionized. Look at NYC and much of California, for example. While it is true that public sector unions are among the most powerful and corrupt unions (like police unions and teacher unions), there are plenty of powerful and corrupt private unions (like the International Longshore and Warehouse Union).

 

[Saudade]

Hello Woko Haram,



Corporations have stolen our Constitution. The American revolution included rejecting the power of corporations. Corporate charters were extremely limited in the original United States.

Originally, corporations were only granted a right to exist for a set purpose or function, and only for a set duration. When the allotted time expired, the corporation was dissolved. Officers of the corporation were held liable for laws broken by the corporation. The punishment for a corporation messing up badly was for the corporation to be dissolved by the government.

Over the years, big money has eroded the power of We the People to limit and control corporations.

The government used to tell corporations what to do.

Now it is the corporations that tell government what to do.

I don't disagree, but I think we might disagree on what the solution is.

Overall, people shouldn't focus on wealth inequality. That's not really a problem in and of itself. The problem is a lack of economic mobility. There are ways to increase economic mobility without driving investment out of the country.

 

[Iolo/Penderyn]

What I see with unions, at least in the US, is that they focus on three things primarily:

Getting their members more pay and benefits to do the same job in the same way. Most unions do nothing to better train members or get them promotions. They will protect incompetence in their ranks so long as the dues get paid.

Enriching the union leadership while increasing their political pull. In this the membership are just paying to give the leaders these things while the leadership really doesn't give a shit about the rank and file.

Perpetuate an Us versus Them attitude towards the company and management.

Why they've lost members and power is because of all three while corporations (not all but most) now see paying reasonable wages and giving good benefits up front eliminate the need for a union and their employees have figured that out. This has occurred partially because the nature of work in America has evolved from the Industrial Age to the Electronics Age. There is an ever decreasing need for strong backs and weak minds doing some menial task all day long. That's what computers and industrial controls are for.

There is a very strong need for strong minds and stronger and stronger unions though. The pay of the majority of American working people hardly shows much sign of corporations paying reasonable wages, surely? It seems to be stuck back in Poppa's time.

 

[PoliTalker]

Hello Woko Haram,

Wealth inequality has little to do with the extent of capitalism in an economy.

Singapore is considered much freer than us in terms of the market, and yet, they have less wealth inequality. New Zealand is also considered freer in the market than us, and it has far less wealth inequality.

If you look at Gini coefficients across the world, the countries with the most wealth disparity aren't exactly the most capitalistic. They're often the most cronyist and not very free in the market, usually due to government meddling. South Africa currently has the worst wealth inequality in the world, and it doesn't rank very well in terms of the freedom of its market.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_of_Economic_Freedom

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gini_coefficient

And you think none of that 'government meddling' is driven by big money corruption?

Man, that's hating on the wrong thing. Government is not the problem. Government is the tool of the super-rich greedy power junkies. THEY are the problem.

By protecting the 'government-bad' myth, that is protecting THEM.

 

[PoliTalker]

Hello Woko Haram,

In the US overall, union membership is down, but that doesn't change the fact that certain parts of the country are still heavily unionized. Look at NYC and much of California, for example. While it is true that public sector unions are among the most powerful and corrupt unions (like police unions and teacher unions), there are plenty of powerful and corrupt private unions (like the International Longshore and Warehouse Union).

Worker rights make America great.

 

[PoliTalker]

Hello Woko Haram,

I don't disagree, but I think we might disagree on what the solution is.

Overall, people shouldn't focus on wealth inequality. That's not really a problem in and of itself. The problem is a lack of economic mobility. There are ways to increase economic mobility without driving investment out of the country.

There is enough wealth in this country for everyone to be doing well. The problem is greed and power. Those at the top are too greedy and have too much power. This prevents others from doing well.

 

[PoliTalker]

Hello Penderyn,

There is a very strong need for strong minds and stronger and stronger unions though. The pay of the majority of American working people hardly shows much sign of corporations paying reasonable wages, surely? It seems to be stuck back in Poppa's time.

It is a great trick that American Republicans have co-opted conservative thinking to get workers to vote against worker rights. Masterful mass deception.

I guess it is sort of a "Look out for the super-rich in hopes that some day you too will be super-rich," except some day never comes.

 

[Saudade]

Hello Woko Haram,



And you think none of that 'government meddling' is driven by big money corruption?

Man, that's hating on the wrong thing. Government is not the problem. Government is the tool of the super-rich greedy power junkies. THEY are the problem.

By protecting the 'government-bad' myth, that is protecting THEM.

And what makes you think that the same tool would turn on the people giving them money?

Look, I know that a lot of people on the left believe that the Nordic countries are some sort of paradise and that they can transform this country into something similar if they just had the power to do so, but the reality is that America doesn't work like that.

For me, I'd love to make this country more like Singapore, but I don't think it's actually possible to do that. American culture is very diverse and conflicted, and that means that capitalism works best here. If you go the socialist route, it just means more corruption than before.

 

[Saudade]

Hello Woko Haram,

Worker rights make America great.

Worker rights? sure. But a lot of what unions represent now is just cronyism and corruption. Public sector unions are the worst of the bunch, because they hold taxpayers hostage.

 

[Saudade]

Hello Woko Haram,

There is enough wealth in this country for everyone to be doing well. The problem is greed and power. Those at the top are too greedy and have too much power. This prevents others from doing well.

Once again, the only way that the elite can prevent others from doing well is through government. Look at how many markets aren't free specifically because of guilds, for example. I can't buy a car directly from an automaker, because basically every state in the US forces individuals to buy new cars from dealerships. Without government interference, there would be nothing to stop me from buying directly.

There are numerous regulations that do this sort of thing to consumers. Most states also make it hard to pay for healthcare directly with cash. You usually have to go through an insurer, which drives up costs.

There are various other regulations that make starting a business difficult in some industries in some states. Licensures are often excessive and expensive. Should a barber really have to get a license? It's not like medical practice.

A lot of what holds back economic mobility is government intervention. So, given how many regulations function this way, I'm pretty reluctant to give government more power, even if the politicians involved claim to be fighting for the people.

 

[Saudade]

Hello Penderyn,



It is a great trick that American Republicans have co-opted conservative thinking to get workers to vote against worker rights. Masterful mass deception.

I guess it is sort of a "Look out for the super-rich in hopes that some day you too will be super-rich," except some day never comes.

That's not really how it works. Plenty of conservatives realize that the reason government can't be trusted is because of lobbyism. It's not about thinking you can get rich by supporting the rich. It's about preventing certain elites from using government to further restrict our ability to do business or to live our lives.

 

[PoliTalker]

Hello Woko Haram,

And what makes you think that the same tool would turn on the people giving them money?

Look, I know that a lot of people on the left believe that the Nordic countries are some sort of paradise and that they can transform this country into something similar if they just had the power to do so, but the reality is that America doesn't work like that.

For me, I'd love to make this country more like Singapore, but I don't think it's actually possible to do that. American culture is very diverse and conflicted, and that means that capitalism works best here. If you go the socialist route, it just means more corruption than before.

Once again, no choice needs to be made between capitalism and socialism.

We can have both. We already do, and we will continue to have both capitalism and socialism.

Our challenge is to get the balance right.

Things that need to be socialist should be. The rest remains capitalist.

We want the best of both worlds as we minimize the worst.

 

[PoliTalker]

Hello Woko Haram,

Worker rights? sure. But a lot of what unions represent now is just cronyism and corruption. Public sector unions are the worst of the bunch, because they hold taxpayers hostage.

I think police unions should be barred from forcing governments to reinstate officers who have been fired for abuse.

Black Lives Matter just as much as any lives. It is a national shame that we have so many black people locked up. That is an American fail.

We are not providing enough opportunity for success.

We are writing off black lives. That has to change before America can be great.

 

[Yakuda]

Hello Woko Haram,



Once again, no choice needs to be made between capitalism and socialism.

We can have both. We already do, and we will continue to have both capitalism and socialism.

Our challenge is to get the balance right.

Things that need to be socialist should be. The rest remains capitalist.

We want the best of both worlds as we minimize the worst.

Prove socialism works in any proportion.

 

[Yakuda]

Hello Woko Haram,



I think police unions should be barred from forcing governments to reinstate officers who have been fired for abuse.

Black Lives Matter just as much as any lives. It is a national shame that we have so many black people locked up. That is an American fail.

We are not providing enough opportunity for success.

We are writing off black lives. That has to change before America can be great.

What if blacks commit more crimes? Who should be in jail? You idiots see something and attribute it to "America". Its the intellectually laziest fucking thing I have ever seen.

 

[Legion]

All anyone has to do is run the socialist playbook every time leftists whine about capitalism.

Just say "but that's not real capitalism".

 

[PoliTalker]

Hello Woko Haram,

Once again, the only way that the elite can prevent others from doing well is through government. Look at how many markets aren't free specifically because of guilds, for example. I can't buy a car directly from an automaker, because basically every state in the US forces individuals to buy new cars from dealerships. Without government interference, there would be nothing to stop me from buying directly.

There are numerous regulations that do this sort of thing to consumers. Most states also make it hard to pay for healthcare directly with cash. You usually have to go through an insurer, which drives up costs.

There are various other regulations that make starting a business difficult in some industries in some states. Licensures are often excessive and expensive. Should a barber really have to get a license? It's not like medical practice.

A lot of what holds back economic mobility is government intervention. So, given how many regulations function this way, I'm pretty reluctant to give government more power, even if the politicians involved claim to be fighting for the people.

You could buy a car directly from a very small automaker but it would be really expensive because the only way to get the price of something down is to build a lot of them at once. Tesla sells directly to customers from the factory through it's website.

Not all States prohibit car makers from selling directly, although most do. Once again, look at the source. Who makes up these rules? Hint: It is not the general public. It is the greedy super-rich telling government what to do and forcing them to do it with the power of big money.

It's not the government telling you what to do. The government is the middleman being used by the greedy super-rich so you'll blame the government instead of who is really behind it.

The only power we should give government is grass roots power. If it came from the general public it is probably better for the general public than if it came from the greedy super-rich.

Always look at the source.

 

[Yakuda]

Hello Woko Haram,



You could buy a car directly from a very small automaker but it would be really expensive because the only way to get the price of something down is to build a lot of them at once. Tesla sells directly to customers from the factory through it's website.

Not all States prohibit car makers from selling directly, although most do. Once again, look at the source. Who makes up these rules? Hint: It is not the general public. It is the greedy super-rich telling government what to do and forcing them to do it with the power of big money.

It's not the government telling you what to do. The government is the middleman being used by the greedy super-rich so you'll blame the government instead of who is really behind it.

The only power we should give government is grass roots power. If it came from the general public it is probably better for the general public than if it came from the greedy super-rich.

Always look at the source.

So let me get this straight you want the govt out of the car making business but want them in the healthcare business? They are bad in one place but good in another? Are you insane?

 

[Saudade]

Hello Woko Haram,



I think police unions should be barred from forcing governments to reinstate officers who have been fired for abuse.

Black Lives Matter just as much as any lives. It is a national shame that we have so many black people locked up. That is an American fail.

We are not providing enough opportunity for success.

We are writing off black lives. That has to change before America can be great.

BLM peddles numerous false narratives. The biggest obstacles for blacks in American society are simply themselves. You can play favorites with blacks all you want, but unless they change certain things about their culture overall, they will continue to fall behind when compared to every other group.