The best arguments atheists and religionists have been able to muster

@Into the Night @IBDaMann

I will make this easy. When either / both of you are ready to move forward, just answer the two questions below. Yes, I mean actually answer the questions, not pretend to answer the questions, and then claim you did.

  1. Does the Earth's atmosphere impact high and low temperatures on Earth?
  2. How does the atmosphere impact high and low temperatures on Earth?
 
ZenMode said:
Regardless of what they believe, they are actually dying for lies.
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But that has nothing to do with what I wrote.

I stated that people don't willingly die for things they know are lies, half truths, fabrications.

The belief you personally hold about the truth is not part of that equation.
 
Dutch Uncle said:
Exactly. It's not about facts and logic. It's about fervent belief.

www.psychologytoday.com

Understanding the Suicide Bomber

One of the most puzzling phenomena to emerge from the various ongoing conflicts in and around the Middle East is the suicide bomber. How do we explain this extreme act?
www.psychologytoday.com www.psychologytoday.com

Understanding the Suicide Bomber​

The terms "crazy" and "inhuman" miss the mark​

An additional factor is what I will call ‘true believerism,' which is the conviction that you and your group are in possession of The Truth. We tend to evaluate true believerism in terms of content, and as such we see it as dangerous and odd in others but not in ourselves. Somehow, our God stories--the resurrection of the dead, the parting of the sea, the animals on the arc--are glorious, deep, and perfectly laudable but their stories--the virgins, and 70 of them!--are strange, laughable, and loony.

True believerism, however, derives its destructive force not from content but from process. Once the ‘true believing' process is in place, you can pour in any content with similarly destructive results. Whatever document you put into a shredder will be shredded, not by virtue of what the document says but by virtue of what a shredder does.
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This is why I don't think the apostles Peter, James, Paul, Andrew would have willing faced arrest and execution just for a tale they conspired to fabricate one evening while drinking wine in a tavern.

Their belief that they saw Jesus after his crucifixion seems like it must have been a consequence of one of the following reasons:

Mass hallucinations
They were all mentally ill
A genuine miracle occurred
Jesus never died on the cross and recovered temporarily from mortal injury
 
Margot said:
"You can't handle the truth"
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YOU can't.

The truth is: I do not know if there are any gods or not...and there is not enough unambiguous evidence upon which to base a meaningful guess. So I don't.

That same truth holds for you, but you can't (or won't) handle it.
 
Cypress said:
This is why I don't think the apostles Peter, James, Paul, Andrew would have willing faced arrest and execution just for a tale they fabricated one evening while drinking wine in a tavern.

Their belief that they saw Jesus after his crucifixion seems like it must have been a consequence of one of the following reasons:

Mass hallucinations
They were all mentally ill
A genuine miracle occurred
Jesus never died on the cross and recovered temporarily from mortal injury
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Agreed 100%. The apostles are the "ripples in the water" I've mentioned as an analogy. I don't need to see the object hitting the water to know that something happened.

I'm going with Door #4. It wasn't a usual crucifixion since the body wasn't left up on the cross to rot. He was taken down after a few hours. It's possible he died later of his wounds, but the story would have taken hold by then.
 
Ross Dolan said:
YOU can't.

The truth is: I do not know if there are any gods or not...and there is not enough unambiguous evidence upon which to base a meaningful guess. So I don't.

That same truth holds for you, but you can't (or won't) handle it.
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Correct which is why agnosticism is the only logical conclusion.

That said, I'm inclined to go with both Siddhartha and Pascal on this one: I don't know, but considering the possibilities, I choose to live my life as if a post-mortem existence is true.

e47a8d77b38d5e7f6aae09c5dcfb0616.jpg

Pacals-Wager.png
 
Cypress said:
But that has nothing to do with what I wrote.

I stated that people don't willingly die for things they know are lies, half truths, fabrications.

The belief you personally hold about the truth is not part of that equation.
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I agree, but people can believe something is true even though it's not. Ashleigh Babbitt died for something she thought was true.

Maybe I missed the overall point. If that's the case, just ignore this post.
 
Dutch Uncle said:
Correct which is why agnosticism is the only logical conclusion.

That said, I'm inclined to go with both Siddhartha and Pascal on this one: I don't know, but considering the possibilities, I choose to live my life as if a post-mortem existence is true.

e47a8d77b38d5e7f6aae09c5dcfb0616.jpg

Pacals-Wager.png
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Your choice how you live your life, Unk.
 
Ross Dolan said:
Your choice how you live your life, Unk.
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As it is for everyone. One way or another we all end up dead. :thup:

FWIW, when I was a junior in HS, I had an NDE. This is a few months to a year after my religious intervention. Although the result wasn't immediate, the result was that I 1) began a spiritual journey and 2) was more likely to take risks such as downhill skiing, flying, "try anything once" sort of attitude.

People who live in fear, such as most JPP MAGAts, is not a good way to live.

"I guess it comes down to a simple choice, really. Get busy living or get busy dying." - Andy, The Shawshank Redemption

One day I'm gonna die
If something's gonna kill me, might as well be
What makes me feel alive
 
Dutch Uncle said:
Agreed 100%. The apostles are the "ripples in the water" I've mentioned as an analogy. I don't need to see the object hitting the water to know that something happened.

I'm going with Door #4. It wasn't a usual crucifixion since the body wasn't left up on the cross to rot. He was taken down after a few hours. It's possible he died later of his wounds, but the story would have taken hold by then.
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I like your ripples analogy. Some people don't realize how often we have to use circumstantial evidence, intuition, and educated guesses in making judgements and taking action.

Jesus having a near death experience and being mortally wounded is the most rational explanation to me, especially given other details reported about the crucifixion.
 
ZenMode said:
I agree, but people can believe something is true even though it's not. Ashleigh Babbitt died for something she thought was true.

Maybe I missed the overall point. If that's the case, just ignore this post.
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Maybe it wasn't clear the way I wrote it. I am saying that the disciples believing they saw Jesus after the crucifixion doesn't sound like a tale they conspired to fabricate. Because nobody willingly faces arrest and execution for something they know is a lie or fabrication.
 
Ross Dolan said:
YOU can't.

The truth is: I do not know if there are any gods or not...and there is not enough unambiguous evidence upon which to base a meaningful guess. So I don't.

That same truth holds for you, but you can't (or won't) handle it.
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You said yourself ,"I do not know "!
 
Dutch Uncle said:
As it is for everyone. One way or another we all end up dead. :thup:

FWIW, when I was a junior in HS, I had an NDE. This is a few months to a year after my religious intervention. Although the result wasn't immediate, the result was that I 1) began a spiritual journey and 2) was more likely to take risks such as downhill skiing, flying, "try anything once" sort of attitude.

People who live in fear, such as most JPP MAGAts, is not a good way to live.

"I guess it comes down to a simple choice, really. Get busy living or get busy dying." - Andy, The Shawshank Redemption

One day I'm gonna die
If something's gonna kill me, might as well be
What makes me feel alive
Click to expand...
Yup!

At age 88, I don't kid myself. The expression, "Today you are one day closer to death than you were yesterday" has emphasized meaning.

Gonna happen...and gonna happen relatively soon.
 
Cypress said:
Maybe it wasn't clear the way I wrote it. I am saying that the disciples believing they saw Jesus after the crucifixion doesn't sound like a tale they conspired to fabricate. Because nobody willingly faces arrest and execution for something they know is a lie or fabrication.
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It's a complicated situation. Paul, who admitted he never met Jesus, claims he converted to Christianity because he later saw Jesus. There's also the fact that none of Jesus' disciples are believed to have written any books in the Bible. His disciples were described as day-laborer types. Not the kind of people who would know how to read or write, so we have no idea where these stories actually came from.
 
Dutch Uncle said:
Correct which is why agnosticism is the only logical conclusion.

That said, I'm inclined to go with both Siddhartha and Pascal on this one: I don't know, but considering the possibilities, I choose to live my life as if a post-mortem existence is true.

e47a8d77b38d5e7f6aae09c5dcfb0616.jpg

Pacals-Wager.png
Click to expand...

Even if there is no afterlife, what's the worst that can happen to a person choosing a moderate path in conscientiously trying to live the Buddhist, Christian or Jewish life? You just committed to trying to live a certain ethos with a group of like minded individuals, and shared a sense of community, purpose, and ritual with them. I don't see a huge downside there.

I'm not counting the fundamentalists and fanatics in this calculation.
 
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