The biggest problem facing monotheism.

[Daylight63]

The atheist has to respond that Jesus was obviously either lying or insane, because there is no God.

FIrstly: we don't really know what Jesus said. So we can't really rely on this CS Lewis Gambit.

If someone claims to be God then I do NOT consider them to be speaking the truth. So I don't have a problem with that. But since we don't REALLY know what Jesus said or thought about his own "divinity" it really doesn't matter either does it?

The analogy only works for a highly committed atheist. There's nothing historical about Santa Claus

Oh yes there is! Saint Nicholas was a 3rd Century Turkish saint! A very real person with a tomb and everything!

, he is and was always intended to be a fairy tale.

This is nothing more than special pleading.

Billions of people accept that the historical Jesus was God in human form

And they must be correct, right? With numbers like that why is there any other religion at all?

, as reported in written sources. . I don't know if they're right, but I'm not going to tell them they are idiots who believe in fairytale. I'll leave that job to you.

They believed in a fairy tale.

 

[Margot]

Whether you know it or not you just restated it. Learn more theology.

Pascal's wager basically says in the case that you don't know if God exists or doesn't exist the most rational approach is to BELIEVE in God because the possible COST of getting the bet wrong is eternal damnation.

The primary theological problem is that this is GAMING the system. SURELY GOd would know you are merely "mouthing the right beliefs" in order to avoid punishment. HARDLY the loving relationship and need for salvation that engenders worship.

If God simply wants people to bow and pray PERFORMATIVELY then it is hardly a god worthy of worship. That's what Trump is. Just wants adoration.

That's why I think it is bad theology.

You really should learn more about the faith.

I specialize in Passover!

 

[Margot]

No, Jesus was just a figure in Jewish religion.

The Jewish religion still hasn't had their eyes opened that Jesus was the Messiah they waited so long for,and the leaders of the Jewish religion conspired with the hated Romans to have their Messiah murdered by the government!
The biggest Crime in history!

 

[Hume]

The Jewish religion still hasn't had their eyes opened that Jesus was the Messiah they waited so long for,and the leaders of the Jewish religion conspired with the hated Romans to have their Messiah murdered by the government!
The biggest Crime in history!

no one cares

 

[Margot]

FIrstly: we don't really know what Jesus said. So we can't really rely on this CS Lewis Gambit.

If someone claims to be God then I do NOT consider them to be speaking the truth. So I don't have a problem with that. But since we don't REALLY know what Jesus said or thought about his own "divinity" it really doesn't matter either does it?



Oh yes there is! Saint Nicholas was a 3rd Century Turkish saint! A very real person with a tomb and everything!



This is nothing more than special pleading.



And they must be correct, right? With numbers like that why is there any other religion at all?



They believed in a fairy tale.

You assume!

 

[Margot]

no one cares

Sonny in The Bronx Tale? " No one cares"!

 

[Hume]

Sonny in The Bronx Tale? " No one cares"!

get lost troll

 

[Daylight63]

You assume!

As do you.

 

[Daylight63]

I specialize in Passover!

That's nice.

 

[Daylight63]

The Jewish religion still hasn't had their eyes opened that Jesus was the Messiah they waited so long for,and the leaders of the Jewish religion conspired with the hated Romans to have their Messiah murdered by the government!
The biggest Crime in history!

...and that's how POGROMS start!

 

[Cypress]

FIrstly: we don't really know what Jesus said. So we can't really rely on this CS Lewis Gambit.

If someone claims to be God then I do NOT consider them to be speaking the truth. So I don't have a problem with that. But since we don't REALLY know what Jesus said or thought about his own "divinity" it really doesn't matter either does it?



Oh yes there is! Saint Nicholas was a 3rd Century Turkish saint! A very real person with a tomb and everything!



This is nothing more than special pleading.



And they must be correct, right? With numbers like that why is there any other religion at all?



They believed in a fairy tale.

Billions of people believe that the New Testament canon are at least a fairly good approximation of what Jesus did and said. I thought you claimed to be respectful of religion? If you want to announce that two billion people are idiots who believe in fairytales, that's fine. But don't go around then announcing that you are respectful and tolerant of people with religious conviction.

 

[Cypress]

No, Jesus was just a figure in Jewish religion.

Possibly, but that's not what the written records in the NT canon say.

 

[Daylight63]

Billions of people believe that the New Testament canon are at least a fairly good approximation of what Jesus did and said. I thought you claimed to be respectful of religion? If you want to announce that two billion people are idiots who believe in fairytales, that's fine. But don't go around then announcing that you are respectful and tolerant of people with religious conviction.

Argumentum ad populum isn't usually the most compelling of logical approaches.

 

[Cypress]

Argumentum ad populum isn't usually the most compelling of logical approaches.

I've think you can disagree with Christianity without insinuating that all two billion Christians are idiots who believe in fairytales. I do so routinely.

 

[Daylight63]

I've think you can disagree with Christianity without insinuating that all two billion Christians are idiots who believe in fairytales. I do so routinely.

Again you specialize in shifting the language to the most pejorative negative statement you can make so it makes me look bad. I guess that's an approach to a conversation but it doesn't feel great.

I will remind you that all of my friends are believers and 99% of them are Christians. I value them and love them. I even find great value in parts of Christianity. So I don't really like you insinuating that I'm being rude to all Christians.

 

[Cypress]

Again you specialize in shifting the language to the most pejorative negative statement you can make so it makes me look bad. I guess that's an approach to a conversation but it doesn't feel great.

I will remind you that all of my friends are believers and 99% of them are Christians. I value them and love them. I even find great value in parts of Christianity. So I don't really like you insinuating that I'm being rude to all Christians.

I don't think you tell them to their faces that God is a fairytale, Jesus is fake, and it's irrational and indefensible to have a religious commitment. Do you tell them to their faces that religious commitment is like believing in leprechauns?

I frequently point out mistakes and illogical deductions holy rollers and biblical literalists attempt to make. But I try to avoid getting on my high horse, by announcing that commitment to Christian belief is exactly like being idiotic enough to believe in fairytales.

 

[Daylight63]

I don't think you tell them to their faces that God is a fairytale, Jesus is fake,

THIS is what I'm talking about. OF COURSE I'm not going to say to my friends "You believe in fairytales!" Why must you assume that simply because I'm an atheist that I'm incapable of being kind to my friends?

So let's set that inflammatory language aside, can we? I certainly don't talk about it that way with my Christian friends.

and it's irrational and indefensible to have a religious commitment. Do you tell them to their faces that religious commitment is like believing in leprechauns?

I sense that this conversation is getting to be too emotionally charged. Certainly your choice of language is far more pejorative than anything I've said so far.

I thought we could dispassionately discuss religion but I see now that I am mistaken. I am sorry if I stepped on your "faith toes".

I frequently point out mistakes and illogical deductions holy rollers and biblical literalists attempt to make. But I try to avoid getting on my high horse, by announcing that commitment to Christian belief is exactly like being idiotic enough to believe in fairytales.

I don't do that either.

I see that I have touched a nerve with you and so as such I will treat you as I treat my other Christian friends and keep it light.

I have a friend who is quite religious but also quite open to conversations about religion both from the atheist point of view and the believer point of view. I should stick with discussing religion with him. It's too easy to offend people you don't know for whom their religious faith is, for lack of a better word, "sacred".

 

[Truck Fump / h1b]

Leibniz tried to solve it with the "Best of all Possible Worlds" concept.

I generally agree, though, that the existence of pain and suffering are difficult to square with the concept of a loving God.

does a good parent over=parent?

do you believe in the concept of over-parenting?

helicopter parenting, not letting your child run so he never falls?

 

[Daylight63]

does a good parent over=parent?

Ahhh, the old "Parent" metaphor.

Let's make the metaphor more like what we are talking about:

A parent who makes a child then raises the child. They REFUSE to actually tell them anything directly, figuring they can figure it all out on their own. And then PUNISHES them if they get something wrong.

NOW, does that sound like GOOD parenting to you?

Can you understand why I think that is BAD THEOLOGY?

 

[Cypress]

THIS is what I'm talking about. OF COURSE I'm not going to say to my friends "You believe in fairytales!" Why must you assume that simply because I'm an atheist that I'm incapable of being kind to my friends?

I don't think either atheists or Christians are necessarily irrational or stupid. I take it on a case by case basis. If I felt my Christian relatives' religious conditions were idiotic and based on fairytales, I would feel pretty two-faced and disingenuous pretending to be kind and pretending to treat their belief with respect.

So let's set that inflammatory language aside, can we? I certainly don't talk about it that way with my Christian friends.



I sense that this conversation is getting to be too emotionally charged. Certainly your choice of language is far more pejorative than anything I've said so far.

I thought we could dispassionately discuss religion but I see now that I am mistaken. I am sorry if I stepped on your "faith toes".




I don't do that either.

I see that I have touched a nerve with you and so as such I will treat you as I treat my other Christian friends and keep it light.

Who's emotionally charged? Not me. I think it's valid for me to ask how you can treat Christian belief as idiotic and illogical fairytales on a message board, but then tell your friends you have respect for their religious convictions in real life. Seems like a fair question to ask.

I have a friend who is quite religious but also quite open to conversations about religion both from the atheist point of view and the believer point of view. I should stick with discussing religion with him. It's too easy to offend people you don't know for whom their religious faith is, for lack of a better word, "sacred".

I post more threads about the atheist point of view than anyone here.