The Dixie Challenge....

No, it's illogical, invalid, and unsound. It's also idiotic, moronic, and pinheaded. There are any number of words we can use to describe this conclusion, but "logical" is not one of them. Therefore, all the assumptions and conclusions which followed, are illogical as well.

Ok, philosophy class #2.

What is logical validity and logical soundness?

A syllogism is considered to be valid, and thus logical if the conclusion drawn in the syllogism is drawn from the premises. It is irrelevant whether the premises are true, an argument is logical if the conclusion is drawn from the premises.

If the conclusion is drawn from the premises, but one of the premises has no a posteriori truth to it, as in the case that 'all that eat grass are green', this is deemed to be unsound.

Therefore an argument could be untrue, ie unsound, but yet still logically valid.

Do you understand?
 
So the argument that we certainly evolved from apes, is a false argument. There is no evidence to support that assertion, there is a theory, but it has yet to be proven. It's just as 'unscientific' to conclude this, as it is to conclude the heavens cause gravity.

Epistemology 101...

On the impossibility of 'proof'.

It isn't possible to prove anything. Simple as that. If you dispute this, prove to me gravity exists....

When an argument is put forward for scientific testing, it is compared to a posteriori evidence. If, during the process of that comparison, a single piece of evidence contradicts a theory, the theory falls.

The argument of speciation is backed by a huge weight of evidence, and has had no refuting evidence against it.

What you are stating is that, the only way for you to believe that humans are part of speciation in the same way as other animals is if you saw an ape evolve into a human in front of your eyes.

Speaking of contradictions, could you explain the one in your argument?

You state that ET isn't a scientific theory because, although there is overwhelming evidence to support and not one item to refute in nearly 200 years, because you cannot directly observe an ape evolving into a human.

Yet you assert that notions of ID are scientific theories. Did you directly observe the 'great designer' at work?
 
I think I understand it better than you.

This paragraph demonstrates that you are wrong.

I have never stated that knowledge is always absolute. I believe some knowledge is absolute, and some isn't.

And what is absolute knowledge? Unless you have found some way to digress subjectiveness, there is no such thing.

You believe theoretical knowledge is absolute, whether you can prove it or not, because you've formed a theory.

All knowledge is theoretical. Again, proof is something that is not attainable. Prove to me gravity exists....

This is what I mean. You are fairly good rhetorically, but against someone with a solid philosophical understanding your arguments appear weak and rhetorical.


I refute that logic and argue that it defies science to make such conclusions.

Your claim of the possibility of absolute knowledge defies not just science but epistemology.... lol See my above ref your contradiction on scientific theories...
 
LMAO... No, I can't keep track of all the times pinheads thought they "owned" me... but I wish I had a nickel for every one!

If you had a nickel for everytime AC and myself ripped you to pieces on this subject you'd be a very rich man. But unfortunately no-one's paying out.

Try to put less emphasis on rhetoric and more on substance, Dixie, people like AC and myself will see through the rhetoric to the basic philosophical flaws underneath, attack them and expose your argument.....

Just a tip.....
 
Dixie claming that he hasn't argued against the evolutionary link between apes and man, is like Bush fans claiming that, technically, Bush never exactly said the word that Iraq was an "imminent" threat.
 
Boy Arnold, you went all out on the $2 words here, didn't you? It's typical for a moron like you. Big words make you feel as though you are intimidating to others, they won't dare take you on when you use such big words! The thing is, when you cut through all the grand phraseology, you aren't saying much.

And what is absolute knowledge? Unless you have found some way to digress subjectiveness, there is no such thing.

I don't know about 'digressing subjectiveness' but I do know the sun will rise in the east and set in the west, that is an absolute knowledge I have because I paid attention in science class. There are any number of things that we know to be absolutes, like you being an anti-God heathen, for example. I know this, it is absolute, therefore it is absolute knowledge.

'P. All that eat grass is green
P. Cows eat grass
Ergo cows are green'

This syllogism is a valid, logical argument


I'm not sure what "syllogism" is, but, this is not a valid argument because the premise you begin with is invalid, therefore, all that follows is also invalid.

Prove to me gravity exists....

Go jump off London Bridge and see if you fly!

Your claim of the possibility of absolute knowledge defies not just science but epistemology.... lol

Your premise that cows are green defies common sense.

It isn't possible to prove anything. Simple as that....When an argument is put forward for scientific testing, it is compared to a posteriori evidence. If, during the process of that comparison, a single piece of evidence contradicts a theory, the theory falls.

Then logic would dictate it's impossible to claim we evolved from apes. Simple as that!

And there have been a number of pieces of evidence which contradicted the past pinhead theories of evolution, and the pinheads simply adjust their theory to account for the contradictions and continue on. So, I don't think this is accurate, or we would have discarded your theory of evolution long ago.

It is irrelevant whether the premises are true, an argument is logical if the conclusion is drawn from the premises.

HAhaha! You're kidding, right? ...Now, explain again how a conclusion can be made if knowledge is never absolute? I'm starting to get confused!

The argument of speciation is backed by a huge weight of evidence, and has had no refuting evidence against it.

Ah... but knowledge is never absolute, remember? And it doesn't matter about the weight of evidence or refuting evidence, because it is irrelevant whether the premises are true, an argument is logical if the conclusion is drawn from the premises, and that is all that matters, right?

What you are stating is that, the only way for you to believe that humans are part of speciation in the same way as other animals is if you saw an ape evolve into a human in front of your eyes.

No, I don't have to actually see it with my own eyes, I would come closer to believing it if I saw some clear evidence of it and had absolute knowledge, but as you said, this is impossible, so I don't. You, on the other hand, fully believe that man did evolve from apes, you can't prove it, you don't have absolute knowledge of it, but you believe it anyway.... I guess it's that 'logic doesn't have to conform to common sense' thing, it just needs a premise? Do you have a $2 word for utter stupidity?

Here's my argument in a nutshell... Much of what you say is correct about science and the scientific method, and I agree. This is why I don't just accept that man came from the apes, or that we evolved from a single cell. Regardless of how tempted I might be by the evidence we've discovered, I realize there is a whole bunch we haven't discovered, and simply don't know. Therefore, it would be 'unscientific' for me to assume this 'theory' to be absolute. Now, if I don't assume the theory absolute, it means I have to observe and consider other possibilities, like ID. It doesn't mean I believe those theories to be absolute either, but I just don't discount and dismiss them as you have. That would not be very 'scientific' of me, and it would completely violate your precious principles of scientific theory to do so.

I don't claim to have the answer, you do! We hear you use all your big words and explain this or that, but the bottom line is, you don't know any more than I do when it comes to how we originated here. You have a theory, I have a theory, other people have other theories, no one has proven this and according to you, no one ever can. So, listen to you own $2 words, apply them to your own perceived beliefs, and ask yourself if you are being open-minded and objective regarding ALL possibilities.

Einstein certainly understood the possibility, he essentially endorsed the theory of creation when he said, "God doesn't roll the dice." Sir Iaasac Newton, the man responsible for what we know as the Scientific Method, spent many years interpreting the Gospels for Protestants... (bet you weren't aware of that one.) So, to completely dismiss creationism or ID, or God, is just a complete contradiction of the very methods and principles you hold so dearly.

If you had a nickel for everytime AC and myself ripped you to pieces on this subject

Well, ya know something, anyone can make this sort of claim and pat themselves on the back, and I suppose you think it's true... but then, you don't believe in 'absolute knowledge'... sooooo....
 
Boy Arnold, you went all out on the $2 words here, didn't you? It's typical for a moron like you. Big words make you feel as though you are intimidating to others, they won't dare take you on when you use such big words! The thing is, when you cut through all the grand phraseology, you aren't saying much.

And what is absolute knowledge? Unless you have found some way to digress subjectiveness, there is no such thing.

I don't know about 'digressing subjectiveness' but I do know the sun will rise in the east and set in the west, that is an absolute knowledge I have because I paid attention in science class. There are any number of things that we know to be absolutes, like you being an anti-God heathen, for example. I know this, it is absolute, therefore it is absolute knowledge.

'P. All that eat grass is green
P. Cows eat grass
Ergo cows are green'

This syllogism is a valid, logical argument


I'm not sure what "syllogism" is, but, this is not a valid argument because the premise you begin with is invalid, therefore, all that follows is also invalid.

Prove to me gravity exists....

Go jump off London Bridge and see if you fly!

Your claim of the possibility of absolute knowledge defies not just science but epistemology.... lol

Your premise that cows are green defies common sense.

It isn't possible to prove anything. Simple as that....When an argument is put forward for scientific testing, it is compared to a posteriori evidence. If, during the process of that comparison, a single piece of evidence contradicts a theory, the theory falls.

Then logic would dictate it's impossible to claim we evolved from apes. Simple as that!

And there have been a number of pieces of evidence which contradicted the past pinhead theories of evolution, and the pinheads simply adjust their theory to account for the contradictions and continue on. So, I don't think this is accurate, or we would have discarded your theory of evolution long ago.

It is irrelevant whether the premises are true, an argument is logical if the conclusion is drawn from the premises.

HAhaha! You're kidding, right? ...Now, explain again how a conclusion can be made if knowledge is never absolute? I'm starting to get confused!

The argument of speciation is backed by a huge weight of evidence, and has had no refuting evidence against it.

Ah... but knowledge is never absolute, remember? And it doesn't matter about the weight of evidence or refuting evidence, because it is irrelevant whether the premises are true, an argument is logical if the conclusion is drawn from the premises, and that is all that matters, right?

What you are stating is that, the only way for you to believe that humans are part of speciation in the same way as other animals is if you saw an ape evolve into a human in front of your eyes.

No, I don't have to actually see it with my own eyes, I would come closer to believing it if I saw some clear evidence of it and had absolute knowledge, but as you said, this is impossible, so I don't. You, on the other hand, fully believe that man did evolve from apes, you can't prove it, you don't have absolute knowledge of it, but you believe it anyway.... I guess it's that 'logic doesn't have to conform to common sense' thing, it just needs a premise? Do you have a $2 word for utter stupidity?

Here's my argument in a nutshell... Much of what you say is correct about science and the scientific method, and I agree. This is why I don't just accept that man came from the apes, or that we evolved from a single cell. Regardless of how tempted I might be by the evidence we've discovered, I realize there is a whole bunch we haven't discovered, and simply don't know. Therefore, it would be 'unscientific' for me to assume this 'theory' to be absolute. Now, if I don't assume the theory absolute, it means I have to observe and consider other possibilities, like ID. It doesn't mean I believe those theories to be absolute either, but I just don't discount and dismiss them as you have. That would not be very 'scientific' of me, and it would completely violate your precious principles of scientific theory to do so.

I don't claim to have the answer, you do! We hear you use all your big words and explain this or that, but the bottom line is, you don't know any more than I do when it comes to how we originated here. You have a theory, I have a theory, other people have other theories, no one has proven this and according to you, no one ever can. So, listen to you own $2 words, apply them to your own perceived beliefs, and ask yourself if you are being open-minded and objective regarding ALL possibilities.

Einstein certainly understood the possibility, he essentially endorsed the theory of creation when he said, "God doesn't roll the dice." Sir Iaasac Newton, the man responsible for what we know as the Scientific Method, spent many years interpreting the Gospels for Protestants... (bet you weren't aware of that one.) So, to completely dismiss creationism or ID, or God, is just a complete contradiction of the very methods and principles you hold so dearly.

If you had a nickel for everytime AC and myself ripped you to pieces on this subject

Well, ya know something, anyone can make this sort of claim and pat themselves on the back, and I suppose you think it's true... but then, you don't believe in 'absolute knowledge'... sooooo....

You're really a total moron aren't you. A syllogism can be logical but wrong, due to false premises. That was his whole point. You're agreeing with him while thinking you've "won something".
 
You're really a total moron aren't you. A syllogism can be logical but wrong, due to false premises. That was his whole point. You're agreeing with him while thinking you've "won something".
Watch out AHZ, he'll accuse of you sucking up to the "pinheads" and call you a liberal.
 
Watch out AHZ, he'll accuse of you sucking up to the "pinheads" and call you a liberal.


What's weird is how I can see myself saying exactly what he does in response to posts like the ones I write now about the fascists. Tell him damo, how I used to be just as stupid. We can save him. " ANyone who's not a judeo-nazi fascist must be a communist." Preposterous.
 
Boy Arnold, you went all out on the $2 words here, didn't you? It's typical for a moron like you. Big words make you feel as though you are intimidating to others, they won't dare take you on when you use such big words! The thing is, when you cut through all the grand phraseology, you aren't saying much.

Don't be intimidated Dixie. If you don't understand what any of the words mean, all you have to do is ask. If you don't understand a complex concept, just ask. If you want, I could even provide links to explain the concepts so you can do further study.

As I said, rhetoric such as the above pathos-laden rant have no effect on me. I understand that these are difficult concepts to understand, but getting upset won't help you comprehend. :-)


I don't know about 'digressing subjectiveness' but I do know the sun will rise in the east and set in the west, that is an absolute knowledge I have because I paid attention in science class. There are any number of things that we know to be absolutes, like you being an anti-God heathen, for example. I know this, it is absolute, therefore it is absolute knowledge.

You know that the sun will rise in the east and set in the west, simply because it has always done so in the past. This is called a posteriori knowledge, knowledge gained by experience, as opposed to a priori, knowledge gained by reason alone. Are you keeping up so far?

We only know that the sun will rise because it has done so before, and because it has done so on a regular frequency. But until the sun rises in the morning, the 'knowledge' that the sun will rise is merely a prediction, based on previous experience. Same with gravity. You could drop a ball a thousand times, and mass be attracted to mass. But you won't know what happens on the 1001st time..

Thus absolute knowledge is impossible.

If you have any questions, or don't understand anything, please raise your hand.

Hurling abuse is the sign that you are really struggling. If you feel you're the big man, play the ball, not the man....


I'm not sure what "syllogism" is, but, this is not a valid argument because the premise you begin with is invalid, therefore, all that follows is also invalid.

A syllogism (Greek: συλλογισμός — "conclusion", "inference"), usually the categorical syllogism, is a kind of logical argument in which one proposition (the conclusion) is inferred from two others (the premises) of a certain form. In his Prior Analytics, Aristotle defines syllogism as: "a discourse in which, certain things having been supposed, something different from the things supposed results of necessity because these things are so." (24b18–20) Despite this very general definition, however, he limits himself first to categorical syllogisms (and later to modal syllogisms). The syllogism is at the core of Deductive reasoning, where facts are determined by combining existing statements, in contrast to Inductive reasoning where facts are determined by experimenting on the world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syllogism

Once again. You are confusing an 'unsound' argument, with an 'invalid' or 'illogical' argument.

An invalid argument is an argument where the conclusion cannot be reached from the premises. An unsound argument is one in which the conclusion might be reached by the premises but the conclusion is 'unsound' due to the dodgy nature of one or more of the premises.


Your premise that cows are green defies common sense.

Common sense? What has the mythical entity 'common sense' got to do with anything. We are talking about logic here, not the accumulation of assumptions acquired.... lol

Then logic would dictate it's impossible to claim we evolved from apes. Simple as that!

And there have been a number of pieces of evidence which contradicted the past pinhead theories of evolution, and the pinheads simply adjust their theory to account for the contradictions and continue on. So, I don't think this is accurate, or we would have discarded your theory of evolution long ago.

Provide these pieces of evidence that contradict evolutionary theory.... lol

HAhaha! You're kidding, right? ...Now, explain again how a conclusion can be made if knowledge is never absolute? I'm starting to get confused!

The non-existence of absolute knowledge is irrelevant to an argument being valid if the conclusion is reached by the premise. In a deductive syllogism, to establish validity, the premises are assumed true, and providing that the conclusion is reached from them, it is valid. To decipher whether or not the syllogism is sound, you then investigate the premises.

I understand this can be confusing, but it is pretty basic stuff. Maybe you should campaign for philosophy to be taught in Alabama's schools?


Ah... but knowledge is never absolute, remember? And it doesn't matter about the weight of evidence or refuting evidence, because it is irrelevant whether the premises are true, an argument is logical if the conclusion is drawn from the premises, and that is all that matters, right?

An argument is valid if the conclusion is reached by the premises, but it might not be sound. see my above.

Understanding what 'valid' and 'sound' is in relation to logical arguments is day 1 philosophy Dixie. Let me know if you understand the difference. If you don't I will expand on this....


No, I don't have to actually see it with my own eyes, I would come closer to believing it if I saw some clear evidence of it and had absolute knowledge, but as you said, this is impossible, so I don't. You, on the other hand, fully believe that man did evolve from apes, you can't prove it, you don't have absolute knowledge of it, but you believe it anyway.... I guess it's that 'logic doesn't have to conform to common sense' thing, it just needs a premise? Do you have a $2 word for utter stupidity?

Dixie, if absolute knowledge is impossible, how do we then judge the quality of knowledge? We judge it on the basis of the quality and quantity of the a posteriori evidence.

The fact that the sun rising is seen as absolute knowledge by those that think along lines of 'common sense' is because of the weight of evidence supporting it. A posterior evidence shows the sun rising on a daily basis. Now imagine if the sun didn't rise.

The same can be said for speciation through evolution. It is impossible to have absolute knowledge, you cann't 'prove' it, but as we discussed above, absolute knowledge is an illusion. It is impossible.

So we compare the predictions made by ET to the evidence, if the evidence supports the hypothesis, then the theory can be said to stand. If evidence contradicts the predictions, it falls.

As it is, the predictions made by ET have stood the test of evidence for over two hundred years.



***************************
Here's my argument in a nutshell... Much of what you say is correct about science and the scientific method, and I agree. This is why I don't just accept that man came from the apes, or that we evolved from a single cell. Regardless of how tempted I might be by the evidence we've discovered, I realize there is a whole bunch we haven't discovered, and simply don't know. Therefore, it would be 'unscientific' for me to assume this 'theory' to be absolute. Now, if I don't assume the theory absolute, it means I have to observe and consider other possibilities, like ID. It doesn't mean I believe those theories to be absolute either, but I just don't discount and dismiss them as you have. That would not be very 'scientific' of me, and it would completely violate your precious principles of scientific theory to do so.

Dixie, Neither do I just accept the idea of speciation through evolutionary processes. If evidence contradicts the predictions then I will doubt the theory as much as the next man.

But the evidence overwhelmingly supports the theory, and no evidence has arisen to undermine it. No-one has found a rabbit fossil in the pre-Cambrian era.....

I also considered ID. I found it woefully lacking of epistemological soundness, and based not on a posteriori evidence but on fallacy. Let me explain...

ID notions are based on the simple inductive argument that 'because complex things created by humans are designed, all complex things are designed.' This is being reductionist, stating that what is correct for one in a group is same for all.

Evidence doesn't support the notion of ID. Looking for what appears to be patterns is just as poor logically. To assume that apparent pattern equates to design is making a huge assumption. It also relies on gaps in evidence of ET for its credibility and as such is simply good, old fashioned attribution, god of the gaps scenerio. It states that because there are things we don't fully understand, it must therefore be the work of a deity.

It isn't that I dismissed ID without considering it. I considered it, and found it to be a simple rehashing of Paley's watchmaker analogy, a fallacy revealed long ago. We should consider all notions, but when a notion is revealed to be so woefully lacking, we don't need to pursue it or consider it an equal to substantial concepts.

Would you teach phrenology, just because it is an alternative idea?


I don't claim to have the answer, you do! We hear you use all your big words and explain this or that, but the bottom line is, you don't know any more than I do when it comes to how we originated here. You have a theory, I have a theory, other people have other theories, no one has proven this and according to you, no one ever can. So, listen to you own $2 words, apply them to your own perceived beliefs, and ask yourself if you are being open-minded and objective regarding ALL possibilities.

Simply because there are alternative ideas doesn't make those ideas equally valid. I have considered ID, and found it lacking, as I have explained above, including why it is lacking. See my above...

Einstein certainly understood the possibility, he essentially endorsed the theory of creation when he said, "God doesn't roll the dice." Sir Iaasac Newton, the man responsible for what we know as the Scientific Method, spent many years interpreting the Gospels for Protestants... (bet you weren't aware of that one.) So, to completely dismiss creationism or ID, or God, is just a complete contradiction of the very methods and principles you hold so dearly.

Again, Dixie, I haven't simply dismissed ID, I have addressed it, and found it woeful. Simply stating that because certain dead people believed in the possibility doesn't make an idea worthy.

Address the points I have brought up concerning the woefulness of ID notions, and if there is anything you don't understand, ask...
 
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You know that the sun will rise in the east and set in the west, simply because it has always done so in the past.

Incorrect, that would be "faith" and many of our ancestors did have this faith, but with the advent of science, we have determined the Earth rotates on its axis in a certain 'absolute' manner, and this is why the sun comes up in the east and sets in the west. This is not a theory, we don't have speculation on this, it's absolute knowledge.

Same with gravity.

No, gravity is not speculated either, we established this law of physics through science as well. We have proven through experiment, the mass of a planetary body determines the amount of gravity on its surface, and that is something which doesn't change. We are never going to walk out our front door and start floating, we have absolute knowledge of how gravity works.

Hurling abuse is the sign that you are really struggling.

Sort of like, when you post a page-long thread filled with condescending put-downs about my intelligence?

usually the categorical syllogism, is a kind of logical argument in which one proposition (the conclusion) is inferred from two others (the premises) of a certain form. In his Prior Analytics, Aristotle defines syllogism as: "a discourse in which, certain things having been supposed, something different from the things supposed results of necessity because these things are so... Despite this very general definition, however, he limits himself first to categorical syllogisms...

Sort of like, you limiting yourself to your version of ET?

An invalid argument is an argument where the conclusion cannot be reached from the premises.

So ET is an invalid argument? Nothing has been concluded from the premise, and can't be, really. We can conclude that things change over time, that things do 'evolve' through various process, but we can't conclude this explains origin, or discount any other possible explanation. That would be illogical.


Common sense? What has the mythical entity 'common sense' got to do with anything. We are talking about logic here, not the accumulation of assumptions acquired.... lol

Hey, just because you want to continue to misconstrue what Einstein was saying about making assumptions, and refuse to have common sense, doesn't mean we all have to be devoid of common sense. Common sense generally always follows logic. It's too bad you have refuted common sense, you might actually have been a smart human being, what with all the big words you know. It's a shame you've abandoned common sense, and have some warped idea in opposition to it, but I would really recommend you stop misusing that line, you come off as a complete and utter moron who has no common sense, and you are perfectly fine with that.

Provide these pieces of evidence that contradict evolutionary theory.... lol

LOL... the most recent is the discovery of the great quarries in Canada and China that show how most of the major groups of animals appeared in a geologically brief period of time during the Cambrian explosion, contradicting Darwin's gradually branching tree of life.

LOL... a Science magazine article explaining how the problem of chemical evolution (a prerequisite for Darwinian evolution and already the Achilles heel of origins science) is in even worse shape than previously thought, since scientists now realize that volcanic pools apparently offer no help in the matter.

LOL... Lack of evidence. The case for Darwinism would be made convincingly if someone were to produce a sequence of fossils from a sequence of adjacent strata (such as ammonite species or sea urchins) showing indisputable signs of gradual progressive change on the same basic stock, but above the species level (as opposed to subspecific variation). Ideally this should be demonstrated in a long sequence, ten or twenty or fifty successive fossil species, showing major generic evolution — but a short sequence would be enough. But this simple relationship is not what is shown in the sequence of the rocks. Nowhere in the world has anyone met this simple evidential criterion… even the world’s foremost paleontologists have failed to do so with the whole Earth to choose from and the resources of the world’s greatest universities at their disposal.

LOL…radioactive dating techniques are far less reliable than was previously thought; the Earth could be much younger than has been supposed by Darwinists; and nothing like the billions of years required by evolution theory have elapsed since the Earth’s formation.

LOL... Natural variation. The natural limit on the amount of variation that can be induced in a species is merely the expression of the fact that nowhere in the animal or plant kingdom is there a species that is capable of the infinite biological plasticity demanded by evolution theory, capable of unlimited adaptation to different environments and different modes of life. Living organisms are systems with limited potential for change in which variation of one characteristic reacts on other characters, usually with unfavorable results. This finding is of central importance because it is one that Darwinists will usually accept, having considered the evidence, but will later on simply forget all about when they are speaking of the Darwinian concept of variation and natural selection.

LOL... HUMAN evolution …the evidence for humankind’s own evolution is actually nonexistent.

LOL... The ever-evolving Darwinian Evolution time table. This changes with discovery. The Darwinian Storybook is filled with corrections and contradictions in the time scale. First it is thought to believe man began to evolve at point A, but when some fossil discovery refutes that, Darwinians rush to change the time table to point B. We discover a fossil showing a certain species had four digits, then five digits, and Darwinists claim this is evidence, however, we then discover the five digit species predates the four finger species, and Darwinists have to adjust their theory and come up with some explanation for this. It's convenient to have 'evolution' built into 'evolution', because you never know what we will uncover next.

Okay, we've had enough laughs! The evidence is clear, Darwinian ET has much contradiction, and little empirical evidence to support it. According to you, this makes it invalid.

An argument is valid if the conclusion is reached by the premises, but it might not be sound. see my above.

No, an argument is invalid if it is based on invalid premises... but then, you don't believe in 'common sense' do you?

It is impossible to have absolute knowledge, you cann't 'prove' it, but as we discussed above, absolute knowledge is an illusion. It is impossible.

You discussed how absolute knowledge is not possible for someone who doesn't have common sense, and I agree. However, I don't believe there is no such thing as absolute knowledge, there are any number of things that are absolute, and we know these things, thus we have absolute knowledge. Of course, Darwinism isn't one of those things.

Dixie, Neither do I just accept the idea of speciation through evolutionary processes. If evidence contradicts the predictions then I will doubt the theory as much as the next man.

So, in one breath you are saying it's impossible to know absolutely, and in the next breath, you've made an absolute determination? Again, this is something easy to do for a person who doesn't believe in common sense, but it's not very scientific.

But the evidence overwhelmingly supports the theory, and no evidence has arisen to undermine it. No-one has found a rabbit fossil in the pre-Cambrian era.....

No, but rest assured, if they do, Darwinists will rush to give us an 'explanation' for it, and protect their precious theory. This is absolute knowledge, becasue it has happened numerous times repeatedly without fail. A fossil is discoverd someplace the Darwin theory says it shouldn't, and as sure as the sun rises in the East, some pinhead who doesn't believe in common sense, will use some big words to tell the rest of us 'idiots' why this is. You've been doing this for nearly 150 years.

I also considered ID. I found it woefully lacking of epistemological soundness, and based not on a posteriori evidence but on fallacy. Let me explain...

I have heard your explanation numerous times, it is void of fact and ignroant of the truth. But beyond that, it isn't scientific because you have made an absolute conclusion, which science is not supposed to do, according to your own philosophy.

ID is not just about simple complexities, it is about advanced complex structures that can't be explained away by your theories, or any other logical theory. The only way it can be completely dismissed, is by non-scientific morons who don't believe in common sense. Which explains you view so you don't really have to!

Simply because there are alternative ideas doesn't make those ideas equally valid. I have considered ID, and found it lacking, as I have explained above, including why it is lacking. See my above...

You found it "lacking" but you couldn't prove it isn't valid. Therefore, you can't say it is "invalid" because this hasn't been proven. I could just as easily state that I have found ET to be lacking, but I can't say that ET isn't valid.

The main problem you ET people seem to have, is this ignorant thinking that ET and ID are opposing viewpoints regarding the same matter. As if, ET somehow refutes ID and nullifies its arguments, or that objective analysis of ID on a scientific basis is not possible because ET refutes it. This is simply untrue and unfounded. You want to "believe" the evidence presented for ET as fact, instead of understanding your own premise of science and realizing it is a theory, but at the same time, you want to defy your own scientific methods and claim ID is not valid, and it's pointless to examine it further. I suppose, by discarding common sense, you are inherently better able to do this than I, but it doesn't make you "correct" about anything.

In short, you want to argue that science proves ET and this refutes ID. Even though you admit we aren't supposed to draw absolute conclusions from science. It's one of those neat double standards you can pull, when you repudiate common sense.
 
"This is not a theory, we don't have speculation on this, it's absolute knowledge."

No, it's not. This is exactly what AnyoldIron's been trying to explain to you. There is no such thing as absolute knowledge. All there is is theory, derived from past experience. Inductive logic, as AOI pointed out.

This does not mean that all theories are equal, of course.
 
"This is not a theory, we don't have speculation on this, it's absolute knowledge."

No, it's not. This is exactly what AnyoldIron's been trying to explain to you. There is no such thing as absolute knowledge. All there is is theory, derived from past experience. Inductive logic, as AOI pointed out.

This does not mean that all theories are equal, of course.

Really? Well what makes them unequal? I mean, without absolute knowledge as you just stated. Please explain, without using absolutes, why one theory is greater or less than the other?

You know, it never ceases to amaze me, how pinheads will pop in to inform me that something is what so-and-so is trying to tell me, and that I am too stubborn to listen. I am listening, I am hearing an idiot, sorry. Maybe if someone could explain this stuff where it makes sense or has validity in logic and fact, I would not be so stubborn about accepting it? Did you ever think about that?

For instance, denying we have absolute knowledge, when our world is filled with absolutes. If we didn't have some absolute knowledge, science wouldn't work, and would be pointless anyway. Science has helped us prove some absolutes, like gravity and the sun rising in the east, and there are some things science can't help us prove, there isn't empirical evidence, but if the evidence is valid and consistent, these things might become theory, like evolution and intelligent design. The discipline of science dictates these theories can't be accepted as fact, that is not scientific, and is the opposite of it.

It's amazing how "scientists" will claim science supports ET, but since science doesn't "prove" it can't support ID. It's a complete contradiction of the very logic you use to support belief in ET. Science can't support belief in ET any more than it supports belief in ID. It is the method of examining the evidence and questioning it repeatedly, without forming a conclusion... yet, you've formed a conclusion, that Theory A is true, and Theory B is false. So-called "scientists" who refute ID and believe ET as fact, are no 'scientists' at all, they contradict what science requires.
 
Really? Well what makes them unequal? I mean, without absolute knowledge as you just stated. Please explain, without using absolutes, why one theory is greater or less than the other?

Some theories have more observational evidence to support them than others. The theory that the Earth revolves around the Sun has more empirical evidence than say, the theory that you have a brain.
 
Some theories have more observational evidence to support them than others.

Yes, but if you can't rely on your observational evidence to be absolute, then it is not relevant, and illogical to assume support. I agree, it's a stupid premise that we don't have absolute knowledge, it is exactly what gives weight to one theory over another. The Pinhead Science Gallery has stated that we never have absolute knowledge, and that is incorrect. If it is correct, then their own theories are irrelevant and invalid, along with ID theory. Science itself becomes irrelevant, because we can't ever have absolute knowledge, therefore, any law or principle of the universe is invalid.
 
You know that the sun will rise in the east and set in the west, simply because it has always done so in the past.

Incorrect, that would be "faith" and many of our ancestors did have this faith, but with the advent of science, we have determined the Earth rotates on its axis in a certain 'absolute' manner, and this is why the sun comes up in the east and sets in the west. This is not a theory, we don't have speculation on this, it's absolute knowledge.

This is getting long, so I will break it into sections.

We have calculated how the Earth rotates on its axis, you are right. But to state that it will occur again is nothing more than a prediction. It is a calculation a prior, based on a posteriori evidence.

As with gravity. We could let a ball go a thousand times, and each time it be attracted to the mass of the Earth. And we can predict that on the 1001st time it will do the same. But until we do it, we do not know. We can only predict. And then we have to address the question of what will happen on the 1002nd time...

Thus we have no absolute knowledge. We can only predict based on past experience.

A glossary of terms for this section:


A priori and a posteriori:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_priori_and_a_posteriori_(philosophy)

Same with gravity.

No, gravity is not speculated either, we established this law of physics through science as well. We have proven through experiment, the mass of a planetary body determines the amount of gravity on its surface, and that is something which doesn't change. We are never going to walk out our front door and start floating, we have absolute knowledge of how gravity works.

We haven't proven gravity through experiment, we have built a weight of evidence to support any further predictions, and calculated the mechanics of how it works.

But until we have experienced the subject, we have let go of the ball for example, the notion that the ball will be attracted to the Earth is an a priori prediction. We can calculate how it works, and we can predict with a high degree of certainty, but it is still an apriori prediction.

You are confusing a certainty of prediction based on overwhelming a posteriori evidence for absolute knowledge.
 
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We have calculated how the Earth rotates on its axis, you are right. But to state that it will occur again is nothing more than a prediction. It is a calculation a prior, based on a posteriori evidence.


Then so is stating evolution will occur again.

As with gravity. We could let a ball go a thousand times, and each time it be attracted to the mass of the Earth. And we can predict that on the 1001st time it will do the same. But until we do it, we do not know. We can only predict.

Again, then you can't predict evolution will happen, or has happened.

Thus we have no absolute knowledge. We can only predict based on past experience.

Past experience says we were created by God, in fact, the belief in something greater than self is apparent in mankind as far back as we have a history of mankind, so since we can have no absolute knowledge and must rely on past experience, this must be true... I believe you just proved God!
 
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