The Historicity of Jesus Christ

[Hume]

Philosophical and scientific debates are the best part of JPP. My argument is writing is the reason we know so much about Homer.

Scholars do not agree there was someone called Homer who wrote the two books. There was an oral tradition. But Homer may have written it down or someone else.

 

[Hume]

The story is that Socrates didn't want to write anything because he thought the spoken word was superior to the written word, and writing could be distorted and misinterpreted.

We actually don't have anything Aristotle wrote either. What we have preserved are lecture notes his students wrote down. That's why they don't read as elegant as Plato's dialouges.

"More importantly, the unvarnished condition of Aristotle’s surviving treatises does not hamper our ability to come to grips with their philosophical content. His thirty-one surviving works all contain recognizably Aristotelian doctrine; and most of these contain theses whose basic purport is clear, even where matters of detail and nuance are subject to exegetical controversy.

Aristotle (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

 

[Cypress]

No, we have texts considered to be authored by Aristotle.

"In fact, we know that Aristotle wrote dialogues, presumably while still in the Academy, and in their few surviving remnants we are afforded a glimpse of the style Cicero describes. In most of what we possess, unfortunately, we find work of a much less polished character. Rather, Aristotle’s extant works read like what they very probably are: lecture notes, drafts first written and then reworked, ongoing records of continuing investigations, and, generally speaking, in-house compilations intended not for a general audience but for an inner circle of auditors.

Socrates (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

Anyone reading the texts of Aristotle can see the same philosophical style and authority of his thinking.

You're right, in the sense that it is open to debate exactly how Aristotle's notes were preserved.

I always heard that his son Nicomachus is the one who copied and edited Niccomachean Ethics.

Another story I heard is that when Aristotle's note were discovered, they were in such bad conditions only about half the words were legible. When they were brought to Italy, some guy in Italy reworked the notes and had to interpolate or guess at the passages that were illegible.

 

[Cypress]

Another Perry Phd masterpiece.

He seems to be wallowing in rage and resentment. Intervention by a shrink seems in order.

 

[Kafka]

Your right, in the sents that it is open to debat exactly how Aristotle's notes were preserved according to Wikipedia

When I googled I found that his son Nicomachuluss is the one who copied and edited Nicccomacheannian Ethics.

Another story I Googled is that when Aristotle's note were discovered, they were in such bad conditions only about half the word were legible. When they were brought to Italy, some guy in Italy (a italian) reglubulated the notes and had to interpolate (I just learned that word!) or guess at the passages that were illejiuble.

Interesting.

 

[Kafka]

I think it's great Cypress and his buddy Doc Dutch are back together. I bet they are trading files as we speak.

 

[Hume]

You're right, in the sense that it is open to debate exactly how Aristotle's notes were preserved.

I always heard that his son Nicomachus is the one who copied and edited Niccomachean Ethics.

Another story I heard is that when Aristotle's note were discovered, they were in such bad conditions only about half the words were legible. When they were brought to Italy, some guy in Italy reworked the notes and had to interpolate or guess at the passages that were illegible.

Wittgenstein's, "Philosophical Investigations" and Nietzsche's, "Will to Power" were not published by the authors but edited after their deaths.
Yet each is considering their master work.

 

[Cypress]

Philosophical and scientific debates are the best part of JPP. My argument is writing is the reason we know so much about Homer.

Homer was to the Greeks what the Christian bible is to European civilization. It was their guide to an ethos of life, and a keystone to what it meant to be Greek. They went to great lengths and expense to maintain copies of Homer.

There is a lot of Greek writing that is permanently lost to the ages, including great philosophers, poets, dramatists because as the centuries passed they weren't deemed as important to preserve. I heard that the only reason the plays of Euripides were preserved is because the Byzantine Empire used them as educational tools for the sons of the aristocracy.

 

[goat]

Scholars do not agree there was someone called Homer who wrote the two books. There was an oral tradition. But Homer may have written it down or someone else.

How long do you think it took for Iliad and Odyssey to spread and become popular in a time when very few could read? My guess is it took at the very least 1000 years.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

He seems to be wallowing in rage and resentment. Intervention by a shrink seems in order.

Agreed. So much wallowing that he's beginning to smell.

 

[Cypress]

How long do you think it took for Iliad and Odyssey to spread and become popular in a time when very few could read? My guess is it took at the very least 1000 years.

Nobody in Greece could read during the Greek Dark Ages, but the basic poetry in Homer was preserved in oral form by bards. Supposedly, when writing was re-discovered and recovered in Greece, Homer reworked these oral forms into the Iliad and the Odyssey.

 

[Cypress]

Wittgenstein's, "Philosophical Investigations" and Nietzsche's, "Will to Power" were not published by the authors but edited after their deaths.
Yet each is considering their master work.

Agreed.

I think that the earliest written copies we have of Aristotle date to the middle ages, more than a thousand years after he lived. So it seems like something of a leap of faith to believe these are really his words in their full accuracy, though I do think the Arabs went out of their way to preserve as much authentic Aristotle as they could.

 

[Hume]

Agreed.

I think that the earliest written copies we have of Aristotle date to the middle ages, more than a thousand years after he lived. So it seems likeI something of a leap of faith to believe these are really his words in their full accuracy, though I do think the Arabs went out of their way to preserve as much authentic Aristotle as they could.

If you read enough Aristotle, it is always clear it is his 'voice' or authorship in terms of the ideas.

 

[goat]

Homer was to the Greeks what the Christian bible is to European civilization. It was their guide to an ethos of life, and a keystone to what it meant to be Greek. They went to great lengths and expense to maintain copies of Homer.

There is a lot of Greek writing that is permanently lost to the ages, including great philosophers, poets, dramatists because as the centuries passed they weren't deemed as important to preserve. I heard that the only reason the plays of Euripides were preserved is because the Byzantine Empire used them as educational tools for the sons of the aristocracy.

These debates help keep my memory sharp. I did a deep dive on the origins of Christianity and still remember some important names and dates. Or at least I think I do.

 

[Cypress]

If you read enough Aristotle, it is always clear it is his 'voice' or authorship in terms of the ideas.

Yes, the ideas in Aristotle are so original, they have to be reasonably authentic. You wouldn't expect a Medieval Italian scribe or a student at the Lyceum to have just come up with it.

 

[Cypress]

How long do you think it took for Iliad and Odyssey to spread and become popular in a time when very few could read? My guess is it took at the very least 1000 years.

The aristocrats could read. Best guess is that Iliad and Odyssey were composed around 750 BC. We know that Greeks of the classical era in the 400s already revered Homer, and Homer was at the core of an education for the sons of the aristocracy. It certainly didn't take long for the Homeric epics to be a centerpiece of the Greek cultural milieu.

 

[EdwinA]

No, I mean what support do you have for your claim.

The point is to find the EARLIEST EXTANT versions of the stories. Not simply assume that one can square all the circles by simply waving one's hands and invoking that the stories must have been going around without any changes whatsoever.



When I get around to it I'll read this. But I'm not making any promises. Especially if it wasn't interesting enough for you and you are invoking it right now as a defense of your position. So if you don't really care about it I don't really care about it.



Not really. Here's Luke stacked up against Matthew:

Matthew 1:16: "...And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ."

Luke 3:23 "...And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli," (it goes on from there).

So we have at least two genealogies going through Joseph to Jesus.

Yet Joseph was NOT Jesus' biological father so it's anyone's guess why Joseph's genealogy would matter.

You're just being a nuisance now. I'm not writing a book for you, there are several sources already, and I named a fairly detailed one. Read it or not I don't care. I posted the sources twice, those with a real interest will read it, those who have other agendas will just keep playing 'I Touched You Last !!!' while never producing any real evidence to the contrary.

You really think they were morons and didn't notice this difference and it just slipped by??? lol

 

[Dutch Uncle]

You're just being a nuisance now. I'm not writing a book for you, there are several sources already, and I named a fairly detailed one. Read it or not I don't care. I posted the sources twice, those with a real interest will read it, those who have other agendas will just keep playing 'I Touched You Last !!!' while never producing any real evidence to the contrary.

You really think they were morons and didn't notice this difference and it just slipped by??? lol

I'm glad you figured that out. Yes, Perry PhD is well educated in being a nuisance, which is about all he's good for.

He's gone through multiple username changes and socks. All claiming different levels of education with the funniest one being his claim he has a PhD in "Geochem". Notice how he constantly attacks @Cypress for being intelligent, educated and rational. All things Perry is not.

 

[Cypress]

I'm glad you figured that out. Yes, Perry PhD is well educated in being a nuisance, which is about all he's good for.

He's gone through multiple username changes and socks. All claiming different levels of education with the funniest one being his claim he has a PhD in "Geochem". Notice how he constantly attacks Cypress for being intelligent, educated and rational. All things Perry is not.

He also likes to steal pictures of ultra-rare minerals from Reddit and give quizzes to people.
Perry PhD seems to think I am the gold standard he has to aspire to and surpass. I'm just here to bash Trump and shoot the shit!

 

[Cypress]

You're just being a nuisance now. I'm not writing a book for you. I posted the sources twice, those with a real interest will read it, those who have other agendas will just keep playing 'I Touched You Last !!!'

Obtenebrator, aka Perry the PhD would literally have an emotional breakdown unless he can get the last word in.