The War On Christmas Ensues

[OrnotBitwise]

Nah, I wouldn't. I'd accept their well-wishes and say "Happy Hannukah" in return. I've long inured myself to the fact that the nation doesn't generally celebrate the holidays associated with my religion.

I've a question for you. How many offended people would it take before we conclude that the practice is indeed offensive? What's the magic proportion of the non-Christian population that would be required to convince you that Christmas greetings really do make some people feel badly?

 

[Damocles]

I've a question for you. How many offended people would it take before we conclude that the practice is indeed offensive? What's the magic proportion of the non-Christian population that would be required to convince you that Christmas greetings really do make some people feel badly?

Honestly, I couldn't care less about it. How many unoffended people would it take to tell you that it just isn't as offensive as you make it out to be? Being one of the non-Christians I have a different POV than most on this. Worrying about "offending" me by expressing your own culture is a waste of time.

Ridiculous question. My opinion isn't based on the "offended" but on whether a truly multicultural society would allow people to practice their culture. Is it more tolerant to let nobody actually express their culture or is it more tolerant to accept it when others do?

 

[Blackflag]

Meh I say Merry Christmas even though I believe religious people are retarded sheep. Who gives a shit. Christmas is what it is called when I get and give presents on Dec. 25th. Call it whatever you want I guess. Who really gives a shit.

 

[LadyT]

Meh I say Merry Christmas even though I believe religious people are retarded sheep. Who gives a shit. Christmas is what it is called when I get and give presents on Dec. 25th. Call it whatever you want I guess. Who really gives a *&$%.

LOL. I agree.
I wouldn't get offended if someone wished me a happy Hannuka, Boxing Day or Merry Buddist Day (yeah, I made it up what of it?). I don't see what the big deal is.

 

[Jarod]

South Florida has a huge Jewish population so I dont say Merry Christmas, I say Happy Holidays. We are all celebrating the same thing anyway... the spirit of renewal and the birth of new possabilities in the dead of winter. Really if you trace it back far enough we are celebrating the time when the sun begins to return toward the northern hemisphere, when we see the promise that spring will come!

 

[LadyT]

I'm in the same boat alex. Its very multi-cultural in my area. Our municipal building has a Christmas tree and the star of David. I guess I'm biased because I don't see any of it as offensive. I tend to side with Damo on this one in that its celebratory of all religions.

 

[Jarod]

I would not be offended if someone told me happy Chanucka. I would not expect anyone to be offended if I told them Happy Christmas. I dont go around saying happy Christmas unless I know the person celebrates Christmas becuase I dont want to appear ignorant to the possability that they dont celebrate Christmas. It makes you look small minded, in my opinion!

Anyway whats wrong with being inclusive and saying happy holidays? I am sending new years cards this year as we are too late with the Christmas ones!

 

[Damocles]

I would not be offended if someone told me happy Chanucka. I would not expect anyone to be offended if I told them Happy Christmas. I dont go around saying happy Christmas unless I know the person celebrates Christmas becuase I dont want to appear ignorant to the possability that they dont celebrate Christmas. It makes you look small minded, in my opinion!

Anyway whats wrong with being inclusive and saying happy holidays? I am sending new years cards this year as we are too late with the Christmas ones!

I think it is a sign that you think everybody else is small minded that they might be offended by showing a sign of the culture in which you take part. Celebrate the differences rather than hide them, give people chances to learn rather than to hide and give more reason to separate.

Assuming people are bigoted enough to be offended by your well-wishes is very small-minded, IMO.

Isn't this what the US is all about? A way that we all live together, celebrate our own cultures and religions, and allow others to celbrate theirs?

I would hope that the Jewish person would have no fear in saying Happy Hannukah, or in accepting a hearty Merry Christmas, as we each wish the other our own cultural well-wishes and we, instead of hiding, learn about each other. This is the gift and promise of this Nation, that learning from each other we can move forward together rather than teaching each to separate and to hide our cultures from others. To be ashamed of expressing it, to "fear" other cultures and the thought that somebody might be offended rather than learn, this is never what the US is about, it holds no promise for the future, it separates rather than teaches, it is cold, and it is culturally bereft.

 

[Jarod]

I think it is a sign that you think everybody else is small minded that they might be offended by showing a sign of the culture in which you take part. Celebrate the differences rather than hide them, give people chances to learn rather than to hide and give more reason to separate.

Assuming people are bigoted enough to be offended by your well-wishes is very small-minded, IMO.

Isn't this what the US is all about? A way that we all live together, celebrate our own cultures and religions, and allow others to celbrate theirs?

I would hope that the Jewish person would have no fear in saying Happy Hannukah, or in accepting a hearty Merry Christmas, as we each wish the other our own cultural well-wishes and we, instead of hiding, learn about each other. This is the gift and promise of this Nation, that learning from each other we can move forward together rather than teaching each to separate and to hide our cultures from others. To be ashamed of expressing it, to "fear" other cultures and the thought that somebody might be offended rather than learn, this is never what the US is about, it holds no promise for the future, it separates rather than teaches, it is cold, and it is culturally bereft.

I agree that others should not be offended by a well meaning gesture such as wishing someone happy Christmas. But still I belive that by wishing someone who you dont know how they celebrate a Merry Christmas you are illistrating a small mindedness that would indicate that you did not even consider that others might be different than you. You are showing off an arrogance that leads you to assume everyone else is just like you! At least that is what it would say to me.

Were I at a largely Jewish gathering and someone said to me, Happy Chunika, I would smile and thank them... I would also walk away thinking, little do they know!

 

[Damocles]

I agree that others should not be offended by a well meaning gesture such as wishing someone happy Christmas. But still I belive that by wishing someone who you dont know how they celebrate a Merry Christmas you are illistrating a small mindedness that would indicate that you did not even consider that others might be different than you. You are showing off an arrogance that leads you to assume everyone else is just like you! At least that is what it would say to me.

Were I at a largely Jewish gathering and someone said to me, Happy Chunika, I would smile and thank them... I would also walk away thinking, little do they know!

You are assuming that they are small-minded bigots that want to learn nothing from you...

Instead of opening the door to learning, we close the door on new horizons by genericizing (newly coined phrase?) our cultures to mundane and bland "greetings" that are meant to never offend but really just allow those with assumptions of another culture to keep those assumptions... To never reach past their current steretotypes...

Each can think of the other... "Those 'dirty' Christians, they think they are soooo big because they supposedly own the religious of the nation..." or the opposite. While smiling behind their little mask, and giving the generic non-offensive and less flavored PC greeting...

I, for one, am glad to live in a society with more than one culture, with all the good that comes from it, and all the happiness to know that they can wish me a "Happy Kwanzaa" and I learn from that greeting about and from them.

It is sad when we hide behind a wall that separates us rather than seize each opportunity to learn from each other.

 

[Jarod]

You are assuming that they are small-minded bigots that want to learn nothing from you...

Instead of opening the door to learning, we close the door on new horizons by genericizing (newly coined phrase?) our cultures to mundane and bland "greetings" that are meant to never offend but really just allow those with assumptions of another culture to keep those assumptions... To never reach past their current steretotypes...

Each can think of the other... "Those 'dirty' Christians, they think they are soooo big because they supposedly own the religious of the nation..." or the opposite. While smiling behind their little mask, and giving the generic non-offensive and less flavored PC greeting...

I, for one, am glad to live in a society with more than one culture, with all the good that comes from it, and all the happiness to know that they can wish me a "Happy Kwanzaa" and I learn from that greeting about and from them.

It is sad when we hide behind a wall that separates us rather than seize each opportunity to learn from each other.

I understand what you are saying however I still think its a simptom of small mindedness to issue a blanket greeting to people of multiple religens specifying a singluar religen.

I had a Jewish woman over to the house last night, she was very interested in the Christmas decorations and the tree. I was happy to talk with her about it.... I think she learned a lot. Much more than some generic greeting would have enlightened her!

 

[Jarod]

TO me, saying Merry Christmas to a group of people who may or may not celebrate Christmas is akin to assuming everyone in Europe speaks English. Its akin to an ugly American mentality. Its ignorance to assume that everyone fits into the majority.

 

[Damocles]

TO me, saying Merry Christmas to a group of people who may or may not celebrate Christmas is akin to assuming everyone in Europe speaks English. Its akin to an ugly American mentality. Its ignorance to assume that everyone fits into the majority.

Only if we focus on the natural tendency to limit understanding does the Generic version make any sense at all. We fear to "offend" and therefore fear to express individualism and culture at all. The more centralized greeting allows others to learn about you, the generic greeting allows no learning, it builds a wall and assumes that others are so simple-minded that they will be "insulted" or "offended" by your own expression of culture.

Instead of limiting and generalizing our society we need to learn to celebrate the differences, to embrace even the limited chance to learn of each other that such greetings give. Rather than hide behind the general and the generic we should grasp with gusto each instance where we can teach or learn from each other, even if it is just that they learn that I celebrate Christmas they learn something of me with that greeting. Otherwise we have this generic boring tasteless society where we hide behind these walls of "never offend" and cannot learn even the little bit of culture that these greetings offer.

 

[Damocles]

Instead of assuming the worst, and generalizing my greeting, I assume the best of others, and hope they will of me too. Rather than greeting me from behind their wall of fear, I'd love each to express their individualism and their culture so that I can learn from them, even that small bit of 'what do they celebrate'.

 

[Jarod]

Only if we focus on the natural tendency to limit understanding does the Generic version make any sense at all. We fear to "offend" and therefore fear to express individualism and culture at all. The more centralized greeting allows others to learn about you, the generic greeting allows no learning, it builds a wall and assumes that others are so simple-minded that they will be "insulted" or "offended" by your own expression of culture.

Instead of limiting and generalizing our society we need to learn to celebrate the differences, to embrace even the limited chance to learn of each other that such greetings give. Rather than hide behind the general and the generic we should grasp with gusto each instance where we can teach or learn from each other, even if it is just that they learn that I celebrate Christmas they learn something of me with that greeting. Otherwise we have this generic boring tasteless society where we hide behind these walls of "never offend" and cannot learn even the little bit of culture that these greetings offer.

I strongly disagree, if I know someone and know what they celebrate I offer a greeting that meets that celebration. Wishing someone to enjoy something they dont even reconize is silly and does not lead to further understanding of eachother!

Now if you take the time to get to know the other person and information about what they celebrate.... you might learn something...! I dont see what I learn by someone wishing me a Happy Christmas over them wishing me Happy Holidays...!

 

[Damocles]

I strongly disagree, if I know someone and know what they celebrate I offer a greeting that meets that celebration. Wishing someone to enjoy something they dont even reconize is silly and does not lead to further understanding of eachother!

Now if you take the time to get to know the other person and information about what they celebrate.... you might learn something...! I dont see what I learn by someone wishing me a Happy Christmas over them wishing me Happy Holidays...!

I could not disagree with you more.

Fearing to give information regarding your own culture is a paradox when it comes to "tolerance". Each group giving the greeting with the most meaning to themselves tells you much about them, you learn about people without having to spend years "getting to know them" and find where they are coming from quickly.

It gives you a positive chance to teach children about different aspects of our multifaceted culture rather than limiting all contact, other than that which is truly personal and therefore limiting, to a generic one-size-fits-all mentality that teaches nothing except to be "offended" when somebody suggests an aspect of their lives which is from that different culture.

 

[Damocles]

It shows fear of intolerance rather than actual tolerance.

 

[Annie]

I've a question for you. How many offended people would it take before we conclude that the practice is indeed offensive? What's the magic proportion of the non-Christian population that would be required to convince you that Christmas greetings really do make some people feel badly?

I don't mean this to be rude, but how hard would it be if I said, "Merry Christmas" to you, not knowing what your beliefs are but acknowledging we are in a country where the vast majority claim to be Christian, for you to reply, "and a Happy Hannukah or Holidays" in reply? Perhaps I might be more careful, or in my case I'd probably just rejoin, "Well certainly, and a Happy Hannukah to you and yours." Or whatever holiday applies. Then again, if you are devoid of beliefs, I'd just smile.

 

[Jarod]

I could not disagree with you more.

Fearing to give information regarding your own culture is a paradox when it comes to "tolerance". Each group giving the greeting with the most meaning to themselves tells you much about them, you learn about people without having to spend years "getting to know them" and find where they are coming from quickly.

It gives you a positive chance to teach children about different aspects of our multifaceted culture rather than limiting all contact, other than that which is truly personal and therefore limiting, to a generic one-size-fits-all mentality that teaches nothing except to be "offended" when somebody suggests an aspect of their lives which is from that different culture.

Who said anything about being afraid to give information about ones own culture?

 

[Damocles]

Who said anything about being afraid to give information about ones own culture?

You did.... "It might be awkward..." etc. All of that translates into, I'm afraid they'll be "offended" by my information...

The whole "PC" movement is pretty much built on that fear. It is directed at limiting individualism in public. One must not give information such as saying "merry Christmas" that tells another you celebrate that holiday as your individualism might be offensive to them, you must instead use a more generic "happy Holidays" so that they'll never know and you can't be offending anybody...

Its sad, instead of teaching actual tolerance, we teach people to fear the other and distrust their ability to tolerate the fact of our individuality.