The War On Christmas Ensues

Damocles said:
You did.... "It might be awkward..." etc. All of that translates into, I'm afraid they'll be "offended" by my information...

The whole "PC" movement is pretty much built on that fear. It is directed at limiting individualism in public. One must not give information such as saying "merry Christmas" that tells another you celebrate that holiday as your individualism might be offensive to them, you must instead use a more generic "happy Holidays" so that they'll never know and you can't be offending anybody...

Its sad, instead of teaching actual tolerance, we teach people to fear the other and distrust their ability to tolerate the fact of our individuality.
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Bullshit, I was talking about wishing someone enjoy a particular religous day. It assumes something about the person you are talking to, but gives absolutly no information about oneself. If I know someone is Jewish I will often wish them a happy Rosh Hashana or Yom Kipper, it does not mean I am Jewish.

I have Jewish friends who often wish me a Merry Christmas, it does not mean that they are considering converting! Damo you are usually very logical and reasonable, you are DEAD wrong on this one.
 
Jarod said:
Bullshit, I was talking about wishing someone enjoy a particular religous day. It assumes something about the person you are talking to, but gives absolutly no information about oneself. If I know someone is Jewish I will often wish them a happy Rosh Hashana or Yom Kipper, it does not mean I am Jewish.

I have Jewish friends who often wish me a Merry Christmas, it does not mean that they are considering converting! Damo you are usually very logical and reasonable, you are DEAD wrong on this one.
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It assumes nothing. It gives them information about yourself, not about them. You can call all the "BS" you want, it is the way I see it. Fear drives the PC movement and it is based on the central idea that we cannot trust our fellows to not be "offended" by our individuality. It is fundamentally against actual "tolerance" and teaches we must fear the intolerance of others to the point of fearing all things we might say that might give them an idea we are not part of a homogenized and generic society.

Personalized greetings for people we know are not the same thing I am talking about here and you know it.

Saying the greeting for the holiday you celebrate to people you don't know gives them information about yourself, it does not assume anything about them. It gives them a chance to answer in kind, you learn about each other quickly... and can take great joy in being reminded of the diversity of our nation rather than the homogenization of PC.

I am not "wrong" I just view it from a whole different perspective, one that celebrates mine, as well as others actual understanding of different cultures in society rather than assumes they will be intolerant of my culture. That somehow they will become "offended" by knowing I celebrate Christmas. I do not fear the dialogue that can come from it if they give a different greeting, and I take joy in learning about those who live around me rather than fear involvement where I must enact some homogenized version of a greeting to keep from "offending" them.
 
Merry Christmas is a friendly well wishing sort of greeting. Anyone who gets pissed over it ...well that is their problem.
 
I have said over and over again that noone should be offended by being wished a Merry Christmas. I would never be offended by being wished a happy Kuanza, festivus or even HAPPY HOLIDAYS....

What I am saying is that to me, assuming someone you dont know celebrates the same holiday as you is presumptious and indicative of a presumptions attitude. Its small minded, especally in a nation as diverse as America to assume others celebrate the same things you celebrate. The recipetant of a misguided "Merry Christmas" should not be embarrassed, the one who delivered it should be embarresed about the wrongfull presumption!
 
Jarod said:
I have said over and over again that noone should be offended by being wished a Merry Christmas. I would never be offended by being wished a happy Kuanza, festivus or even HAPPY HOLIDAYS....

What I am saying is that to me, assuming someone you dont know celebrates the same holiday as you is presumptious and indicative of a presumptions attitude. Its small minded, especally in a nation as diverse as America to assume others celebrate the same things you celebrate. The recipetant of a misguided "Merry Christmas" should not be embarrassed, the one who delivered it should be embarresed about the wrongfull presumption!
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Once again, you "assume" that because I say my greeting I am assuming something of you. I am not. That is the view that gets you off, and promotes the whole fear of "offending" that I am speaking of.

Nobody need to assume that the other celebrates the same thing to say "merry Christmas".. No one need to assume the other will be "offended"...

It is simply a whole different view, and one that I will promote over the PC fear every day, and continue doing so. We should not fear, but rather celebrate, the differences that make this nation great. When I give the greeting I presume nothing at all about the other person, but offer information of myself and give them the chance to answer in kind. The idea that I "presume" anything has already been covered and shown to be incorrect. I would not be embarrassed about them answering differently, I would be happy that they trusted me enough to know I would not be "offended" by their differences and that they were not afraid of offering the same information to me in kind. Later, if I saw them, I could offer them their greeting as a show of understanding that never would come about had I offered only the homogenized accepted PC greeting. We would know nothing about each other, other than we were both afraid to "offend".
 
I would not be afraid of offending someone, I would be afraid of looking like an presumptions fool.

When a Jewish person wishes me a Merry Christmas, what does it tell you about that person?
 
There are Jews that believe Christ was the son of God Jarod....
It could just mean that the Jew in question had become Americanized.
 
uscitizen said:
There are Jews that believe Christ was the son of God Jarod....
It could just mean that the Jew in question had become Americanized.
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It could, but I bet more likely they know I celebrate Christmas and are wishing that I enjoy it!
 
Jarod said:
I would not be afraid of offending someone, I would be afraid of looking like an presumptions fool.

When a Jewish person wishes me a Merry Christmas, what does it tell you about that person?
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"Looking like a presumptuous fool" is being afraid of offending.

The assumption that this is what you would look like is "fear" and it is cultural. It is taught. Rather than teaching people to accept differences we attempt to teach them to homogenize to avoid "looking like a presumptuous fool". It is teaching them to fear others intolerance rather than actually learn something of others.

It is no presumption to offer them the chance to give me the same information I gave them about myself. When they return it in kind I do not feel embarrassed, rather joyful, as described above, that they feel comfortable enough to offer me the same information about themselves. That we can each presume the other to be tolerant is something that deserves celebration rather than celebrating PC and teaching everybody to fear giving such information of ourselves to others we do not know. Rather than presuming that if they celebrate something different they will think less of me for offering a joyful greeting relevant to my culture and can offer the same in return.

The presumption is that they will be intolerant and "offended".
 
Damocles said:
"Looking like a presumptuous fool" is being afraid of offending.

The assumption that this is what you would look like is "fear" and it is cultural. It is taught. Rather than teaching people to accept differences we attempt to teach them to homogenize to avoid "looking like a presumptuous fool". It is teaching them to fear others intolerance rather than actually learn something of others.

It is no presumption to offer them the chance to give me the same information I gave them about myself. When they return it in kind I do not feel embarrassed, rather joyful, as described above, that they feel comfortable enough to offer me the same information about themselves. That we can each presume the other to be tolerant is something that deserves celebration rather than celebrating PC and teaching everybody to fear giving such information of ourselves to others we do not know.
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The only information you are giving them about yourself is that you assume them to celebrate Christmas!


Damo, what you are pretending not to notice is that people who are not CHRISTIANS and people who do not celebrate Christmas can and often do wish people a Merry Christmas!
 
Being afraid of embarrasing yourself is not the same thing as being afraid of offending someone else.
 
Jarod said:
The only information you are giving them about yourself is that you assume them to celebrate Christmas!


Damo, what you are pretending not to notice is that people who are not CHRISTIANS and people who do not celebrate Christmas can and often do wish people a Merry Christmas!
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Kinda like me. I do celebrate Christmas, but not as a religious holiday. I wish others Merry Christmas and do not get offended when someone wishes me a Merry Christmas.

Merry Chriatmas all you fellow heathen's out there ;)
 
Jarod said:
The only information you are giving them about yourself is that you assume them to celebrate Christmas!


Damo, what you are pretending not to notice is that people who are not CHRISTIANS and people who do not celebrate Christmas can and often do wish people a Merry Christmas!
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Bullpucky, I have not presumed anything about them. You presume to assign motive to myself without reading my actual thoughts on the matter. You also presume that they will be "offended" by being offered a greeting from my culture and that I should be "embarrassed" when they offer a greeting from theirs in return.

All of this is simple assumption and not reasoning, it discounts all other thought processes other than your original assumption that I should be "embarrassed" for offering a cultural greeting to somebody.
 
Jarod said:
Being afraid of embarrasing yourself is not the same thing as being afraid of offending someone else.
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Bull, it is exactly the same, you would only be "embarrassed" if they were also "offended" rather than joyful that you trusted in their tolerance.
 
Jarod said:
The only information you are giving them about yourself is that you assume them to celebrate Christmas!


Damo, what you are pretending not to notice is that people who are not CHRISTIANS and people who do not celebrate Christmas can and often do wish people a Merry Christmas!
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Pretending not to "notice"... Man you are ridiculous. How can I not notice? I am not a Christian. I have also suggested that after learning about their culture I would offer them their greeting, something I never would have learned without first offering that greeting to begin with.
 
Damocles said:
Bullpucky, I have not presumed anything about them. You presume to assign motive to myself without reading my actual thoughts on the matter. You also presume that they will be "offended" by being offered a greeting from my culture and that I should be "embarrassed" when they offer a greeting from theirs in return.

All of this is simple assumption and not reasoning, it discounts all other thought processes other than your original assumption that I should be "embarrassed" for offering a cultural greeting to somebody.
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No, I have never presumed they would be offended. I think they should not be offended. Please be carefull about putting words in my mouth.

When a person wishes you a Merry Christmas, what does it tell you about that person?
 
Damocles said:
Pretending not to "notice"... Man you are ridiculous. How can I not notice? I am not a Christian. I have also suggested that after learning about their culture I would offer them their greeting, something I never would have learned without first offering that greeting to begin with.
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Then why are you saying that by offering someone the greeting "Merry Christmas", you are telling that person something about yourself?
 
Jarod said:
No, I have never presumed they would be offended. I think they should not be offended. Please be carefull about putting words in my mouth.

When a person wishes you a Merry Christmas, what does it tell you about that person?
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If they are offering it as a stranger it usually tells me what holiday they celebrate.
 
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