Time To Dump The Second Amendment?

[Dutch Uncle]

Redistricting has nothing to do with voter turnout which increased despite tighter election laws. Redistricting has nothing to do with state-wide elections like governor and U. S. Senators. If it is unAmerican the U. S. has been unAmerican since the early 1800's.

Agreed. Doesn't that depend upon the State for governor and state reps? Most use the same disctricts, right?

It goes against the basic American concept of equality. One citizen, one vote and that votes are important.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

The stock owners. Millions of middle class have retirement accounts that made them money and many retire with over $1 million. The stock market was not making money during the entire recession. It took a big drop (about 40%) in 2008 and by around 2012 had largely returned to the former level. People only lost money if they sold.

I don't think anybody was robbing the till. Politicians were spending to please Democratic and Republican voters who want more spending on military, Social Security, Medicare, social programs like TANF, SNAP, Earned Income Tax Credit, education funding, infrastructure, stimulus checks, child tax credit......

You are right--we spend (borrow) too much, but voters want that spending (for stuff they like). 9/11 results in more spending for security, mass shootings result in more for hardening schools, immigration problems result in more money for walls and border agents.

My 401k did good but how many Americans had a decent 401k in those days? It appears most are to busy paying bills:

https://www.personalcapital.com/blog/retirement-planning/average-401k-balance-age/
While the 401k is one of the best available retirement saving options for many people, just 41% of workers contribute to one, according to the U.S. Census Bureau. That is staggering given the number of employees who have access to employer-sponsored plans: 68% of employed Americans.

 

[Flash]

Agreed. Doesn't that depend upon the State for governor and state reps? Most use the same disctricts, right?

It goes against the basic American concept of one citizen, one vote and that votes are important.

Who uses the same districts? (I don't follow). Gerrymandering does not violate one citizen, one vote. It may determine who wins, but not whether citizens have an equal vote. Most states use it to protect incumbents.

It you want representation in a state to be roughly equal to the same percentage of racial/ethnic groups and political party support in that state, you can only achieve it through gerrymandering. There is no way to draw square districts (or whatever is desired) and achieve political and racial representation. I think NY just had some of its districts overturned. It was always intended to be a political process.

 

[NiftyNiblick]

Why is Pollyanna so consistently full of shit?

We can all read the steps for amending the constitution.

Which of them are the slightest bit plausible with this level of polarization?

NONE of them. It can't be done.

People in Texas, for example, would actually rather see their kids massacred in gunfire than tolerate any firearms restrictions at all.
Pollyanna lives in a dreamworld. The opium is quite good in his/her/its neighborhood, and his/her/its pipe is always burning, apparently.

 

[Flash]

My 401k did good but how many Americans had a decent 401k in those days? It appears most are to busy paying bills:

https://www.personalcapital.com/blog/retirement-planning/average-401k-balance-age/
While the 401k is one of the best available retirement saving options for many people, just 41% of workers contribute to one, according to the U.S. Census Bureau. That is staggering given the number of employees who have access to employer-sponsored plans: 68% of employed Americans.

The U. S. has 20.2 million millionaires. About 20% inherit and 80% are self-made, first generation.

I am always surprised how many teachers, plant workers, and white collar workers have a substantial amount in retirement savings. Of course, some have nothing.

 

[Truck Fump / h1b]

They did not transgress anything since the entire Bill of Rights applied only to the federal government until 1925-2010.

A state could not violate the 2nd Amendment until the SC applied it to the states in 2010. State laws and constitutions did restrict states.

and it was unconstitutional.

see how you're on the wrong side of things despite pretending to be freedom oriented?

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Who uses the same districts? (I don't follow). Gerrymandering does not violate one citizen, one vote. It may determine who wins, but not whether citizens have an equal vote. Most states use it to protect incumbents.

It you want representation in a state to be roughly equal to the same percentage of racial/ethnic groups and political party support in that state, you can only achieve it through gerrymandering. There is no way to draw square districts (or whatever is desired) and achieve political and racial representation. I think NY just had some of its districts overturned. It was always intended to be a political process.

No fucking shit! LOL

 

[BidenPresident]

I am always surprised how many teachers, plant workers, and white collar workers have a substantial amount in retirement savings.

How do you know what that amount is?

 

[NiftyNiblick]

and it was unconstitutional.

see how you're on the wrong side of things despite pretending to be freedom oriented?

AssHat Zombie discussing the Constitution is pretty much the same as AssHat Zombie discussing neurosurgery or rocket science.
He's come right out and said that the articles are of less importance than the amendments. Totally fucking clueless.

 

[Truck Fump / h1b]

AssHat Zombie discussing the Constitution is pretty much the same as AssHat Zombie discussing neurosurgery or rocket science.
He's come right out and said that the articles are of less importance than the amendments. Totally fucking clueless.

this is our system.

the federal government strikes down state laws that are unconstitutional in certain areas, in the specified areas. gun rights is one of them.

abortion is not.

you people don't understand federalism.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

The U. S. has 20.2 million millionaires. About 20% inherit and 80% are self-made, first generation.

I am always surprised how many teachers, plant workers, and white collar workers have a substantial amount in retirement savings. Of course, some have nothing.

Nice numbers but it's rates and percentages that matter. Note that while the size of the upper class has increased in size, so has the lower class. As the unions declined, so did the middle class.

Like this: https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-ta...e-class-has-changed-in-the-past-five-decades/

 

[Flash]

and it was unconstitutional.

see how you're on the wrong side of things despite pretending to be freedom oriented?

I said nothing about my views, I simply gave a factual description of constitutional law. It was unconstitutional for a state to illegally restrict gun rights only after the SC applied it to the states in 2010. Before that a state could not violate the 2nd because it did not apply to states. See the incorporation process--important constitutional process.

Where did I fail to meet the test of being "freedom oriented"?

 

[NiftyNiblick]

you people don't understand federalism.

I DO understand it, AssHat, and I hate it.
It sucks the pus out of syphilitic cock sores.

We need a modern, parliamentary national government,
and the best and brightest--the intellectually elite--should be running it, not drooling Joe Sixpack..

 

[Flash]

No fucking shit! LOL

Whoever draws those district lines influences who wins---it does not have to meet some concept of "gerrymander." There is no way to draw those lines without affecting party, race/ethnic, regional interests, maintaining a community of interest....

Play around with some of these games when you have the chance to see how tricky it can be. Plus, legislators must meet the requirements of the Voting Rights Act which makes it difficult to give minorities representation without violating other principles

http://www.redistrictinggame.org/

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive...l-gerrymandering-redistricting-game-2022.html

 

[Flash]

How do you know what that amount is?

Yes

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Whoever draws those district lines influences who wins---it does not have to meet some concept of "gerrymander." There is no way to draw those lines without affecting party, race/ethnic, regional interests, maintaining a community of interest....

Play around with some of these games when you have the chance to see how tricky it can be. Plus, legislators must meet the requirements of the Voting Rights Act which makes it difficult to give minorities representation without violating other principles

http://www.redistrictinggame.org/

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive...l-gerrymandering-redistricting-game-2022.html

Slavery used to be legal too. What's your point? That since it's legal is just?

 

[Flash]

Nice numbers but it's rates and percentages that matter. Note that while the size of the upper class has increased in size, so has the lower class. As the unions declined, so did the middle class.

Like this: https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-ta...e-class-has-changed-in-the-past-five-decades/

Your chart.

1971: 29% lower/50% middle/21% upper
2021: 25% lower/61% middle/14% upper

Between 1971-2021: 7% of the middle class moved to upper class and 4% moved to lower class.

So, the middle class is smaller because more of them moved into upper class and a smaller number moved into the lower class.

It seems like this is a good trend to have more people move to upper class

 

[Flash]

Slavery used to be legal too. What's your point? That since it's legal is just?

The point is that it is impossible to draw district lines and not gerrymander if you are seeking to make the party balance and racial/ethnic groups roughly equal to the state.

Some don't think party or race should be factors in drawing the lines; if so, it is much easier. Does white person have to represent a white district or can a black person represent white people?

The Voting Rights Act uses factors such as compact, contiguous, communities of interest, political and geographic boundaries, and reducing minority voting strength that legislature must follow or face lawsuits.

They can have those districts overturned if they pack too many minorities in a district or not enough. Texas drew a district with a majority of Hispanic voters and the court ruled since Hispanics vote in lower numbers they did not have a chance to elect a Hispanic to office.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Your chart.

1971: 29% lower/50% middle/21% upper
2021: 25% lower/61% middle/14% upper

Between 1971-2021: 7% of the middle class moved to upper class and 4% moved to lower class.

So, the middle class is smaller because more of them moved into upper class and a smaller number moved into the lower class.

It seems like this is a good trend to have more people move to upper class

Good to see you can count.

Do you think 4% families who dropped into Lower Income are pleased that 7% moved into the upper class? Not exactly "a rising tide lifts all boats", is it? More like 4% are sacrificed for 7%.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

The point is that it is impossible to draw district lines and not gerrymander if you are seeking to make the party balance and racial/ethnic groups roughly equal to the state.

Some don't think party or race should be factors in drawing the lines; if so, it is much easier. Does white person have to represent a white district or can a black person represent white people?

The Voting Rights Act uses factors such as compact, contiguous, communities of interest, political and geographic boundaries, and reducing minority voting strength that legislature must follow or face lawsuits.

They can have those districts overturned if they pack too many minorities in a district or not enough. Texas drew a district with a majority of Hispanic voters and the court ruled since Hispanics vote in lower numbers they did not have a chance to elect a Hispanic to office.

Nice sales pitch. Consider DeSantis's move in Florida; only a third of Floridians are Republicans but the Republicans are assured of holding power over all Floridians because of redistricting. Why do you defend that as a good thing?