What are the Dems up to threatening Turkey?

Dungheap said:
1) Kurdistan isn't the main issue. The main issue is that the PKK is operating out of Northern Iraq against targets in Turkey and we are doing absolutely nothing about it even though the PKK is a terrorist organization. That is the main reason for the authorization, to take out the PKK since no one else will, specifically, the US.

2) I say that the resolution did not cause the authorization in that the resolution was not the driving force behind it. There are myriad other reasons why the authorization was passed, they were the cause. At best, the resolution caused the timing of the authorization.

As an aside, to say that the Turks have been ignoring the Kurdish raids is wrong. There have been active hostilities between Turks and Kurds along the border in both Turkey and Iraq for quite a while now. Indeed, just a few weeks ago Turkey authorized "hot pursuits" into Iraqi territory to pursue Kurdish rebels, well before the resolution became an issue.

(By the way, the resolution has not passed either house of Congress).

3) Fair enough, but emphasizing the Turkish point of view simply lets them off the hook. I think a fair assessment of the situation is that Turkey would have done this anyway and they are using an ill-timed resolution as cover for their actions.
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ok.... we are closer in agreement than I thought....

1) You are correct that the main issue is the incursions by the PKK. I do not disagree with that at all. It is certainly the main reason Turkey wants to go into northern Iraq.

2) This resolution by the Turks came immediately after they warned us what would happen if the US House proceeded with a vote on the resolution regarding genocide. Again, I agree that the resolution is not the main reason they want to go into Iraq.... but the resolution was the final straw.

On your aside: I am aware that the hostilities have been on-going, they have been ever since we began the no-fly zone in the north protecting the Kurds from Saddam. But the troop movements in such mass have occurred very recently... and they are not talking about pursuit parties here. The force they have prepared is designed for one purpose... to hunt down and crush the Kurds of the PKK.

3) This is where we are in complete agreement. I did not mean to imply that we should let them off the hook. They wanted this and as you say... it is the "ill-timed resolution" that they are using as "cover". THAT cover would not exist had we not proceeded with the vote.

As you stated, the resolution has not been passed by the full house. Which is why I think the Turks are on hold right now. The Armenian resolution passed the House committee vote.... the Turks responded with an authorization to use force vote. IF (and this is currently still an IF) the House presses on with a full vote and it passes.... then I believe the Turks will respond by going into Iraq.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damocles
No, the Dems, in this very thread, multiple times told us that they 'don't care' that it might effect the soldiers negatively.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperFreak
ah... yes, I recall that.... it slipped my memory amongst all their displays of caring for the troops...

And still, neither of these two have backed off of these lies, or offered any proof of them, if they still believe this.

But there is something wrong with me. Ok.

That's fine. But I don't deal with people who lie me, or something I said.

it's that simple. That is always a deal breaker.
 
Darla said:
Why on earth would I change my position over something you and Damo "suggested" that I clearly stated I did not agree would even happen?

Are you crazy?

Are you this enamoured of your stupid opinions that you would open your fat mouth and think that I should then change my opinion because of something you uttered?

Who the fuck do you think you are? And what does any of that have to do with the fact that I NEVER SAID I DIDN'T CARE HOW THIS EFFECTED THE TROOPS, WHICH IS THE LIE DAMO TOLD AND YOU SECONDED.

You fucking idiot.

I started the insults? Because I pointed out that you're a liar?

You are a liar.
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Deep breath.... now try READING what I wrote. I did not say you specifically stated that you did not care about the troops. You specifically stated that you did not care about the RESOLUTION. Yet the resolution has led to the potential of greater harm for our troops. Given that THAT has happened.... given that the resolution could put our troops in greater danger.... DO YOU STILL NOT CARE ABOUT THE RESOLUTION?????????????

you cannot both "not care about the resolution" and "care about the troops"... they are no longer mutually exclusive.
 
Superfreak said:
Deep breath.... now try READING what I wrote. I did not say you specifically stated that you did not care about the troops. You specifically stated that you did not care about the RESOLUTION. Yet the resolution has led to the potential of greater harm for our troops. Given that THAT has happened.... given that the resolution could put our troops in greater danger.... DO YOU STILL NOT CARE ABOUT THE RESOLUTION?????????????

you cannot both "not care about the resolution" and "care about the troops"... they are no longer mutually exclusive.
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you cannot both "not care about the resolution" and "care about the troops"... they are no longer mutually exclusive.


Yes you can.

You're premise is that turkey is considering military action because of a House panel vote.

I reject your premise. For reasons stated previously
 
Darla said:
You know what, forget everything I said.

You're right. I change my opinion

A man has spoken.

Unless, SF disagrees withyou, then I will have to "change my opinion" again, because he is the chief dick around here.

But for now, unless I here differently from the chief, I agree with you Dave.
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I smell sarcasm mixed with honesty...
 
Superfreak said:
ok.... we are closer in agreement than I thought....

1) You are correct that the main issue is the incursions by the PKK. I do not disagree with that at all. It is certainly the main reason Turkey wants to go into northern Iraq.

2) This resolution by the Turks came immediately after they warned us what would happen if the US House proceeded with a vote on the resolution regarding genocide. Again, I agree that the resolution is not the main reason they want to go into Iraq.... but the resolution was the final straw.

On your aside: I am aware that the hostilities have been on-going, they have been ever since we began the no-fly zone in the north protecting the Kurds from Saddam. But the troop movements in such mass have occurred very recently... and they are not talking about pursuit parties here. The force they have prepared is designed for one purpose... to hunt down and crush the Kurds of the PKK.

3) This is where we are in complete agreement. I did not mean to imply that we should let them off the hook. They wanted this and as you say... it is the "ill-timed resolution" that they are using as "cover". THAT cover would not exist had we not proceeded with the vote.

As you stated, the resolution has not been passed by the full house. Which is why I think the Turks are on hold right now. The Armenian resolution passed the House committee vote.... the Turks responded with an authorization to use force vote. IF (and this is currently still an IF) the House presses on with a full vote and it passes.... then I believe the Turks will respond by going into Iraq.
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Fair enough.

Also keep in mind that in Turkey has been amassing troops along the border for some time, with reports dating back to Spring of 2006 and even July of this year. You can do "show of force" operations only so many times before their effectiveness wanes. At some point either you convince the other side to resolve the problem or you have to take active measures to resolve the problem yourself.

On the hot pursuit issue, I realize we are talking about two totally different ballgames, but I wanted to point out that this has been a festering problem for some time and that incursions into Iraqi territory have occurred and are authorized to an extent.
 
Darla said:
And from what I've read today, it probably will no longer pass the house.

Both REPUBLICAN AND Democratic supporters, are backing off out of fear of Turkey.

So when Turkey does invade, no doubt it will be because 25 Congresspeople "thumbed their nose at Turkey" with a committee vote.
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exactly Darla... out of fear of what Turkey will do... they are backing off from the full vote. Which is exactly what we were saying the Dems that led the committee and the Reps that voted with them should have done prior to pissing Turkey off with the committee vote. Is it really that hard for you to comprehend the sequence?

1) House committee says they are going to bring up a vote on Armenian genocide

2) Turkey says that could hurt relations between our countries and says they will vote on resolution to authorize force into Iraq

3) House committee says "fuck you" to Turks and votes to move Genocide amendment to full house.

4) Turks say "well fuck you too" and pass authorization to use force bill.

5) Reps and Dems in Congress realize the Turks aren't fucking kidding and are finally backing off.

Now go back in time a bit to when the House committee first started the talk about voting on this resolution right now. That is when it was stated that this would be very ill-timed and could cause harm to the troops.

At the time you stated that you did not care about the resolution (not that you did not care about the troops... I do think you care about them, but that you didn't think this resolution would affect them) Now that it has shown that it could indeed affect them..... will you, like the idiots in DC admit that the resolution was a bad idea at this time?
 
Cypress said:

you cannot both "not care about the resolution" and "care about the troops"... they are no longer mutually exclusive.


Yes you can.

You're premise is that turkey is considering military action because of a House panel vote.

I reject your premise. For reasons stated previously
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My premise is that Turkey, even though they have been considering military action for quite some time, have been holding off because of their relations with the US. Now that we are dealing with this resolution, they are ignoring our desire for them to stay out. This House Resolution is damaging our relations with them and the one thing that kept them out is now no longer a concern.
 
Dungheap said:
Fair enough.

Also keep in mind that in Turkey has been amassing troops along the border for some time, with reports dating back to Spring of 2006 and even July of this year. You can do "show of force" operations only so many times before their effectiveness wanes. At some point either you convince the other side to resolve the problem or you have to take active measures to resolve the problem yourself.

On the hot pursuit issue, I realize we are talking about two totally different ballgames, but I wanted to point out that this has been a festering problem for some time and that incursions into Iraqi territory have occurred and are authorized to an extent.
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You are correct. I think the troop movements began around that time. Which is why we were so desperately trying to prevent it from escalating and why this resolution was so ill-timed.

You are also correct that if nothing is done, sooner or later they are going to deal with the PKK. I think Bush is trying to push it to the later category so that he doesn't have to deal with it. Ideally, someone will come up with a way to stop the Kurds before it gets to that point. I have no faith in that someone being Bush.
 
Superfreak said:
You are correct. I think the troop movements began around that time. Which is why we were so desperately trying to prevent it from escalating and why this resolution was so ill-timed.

You are also correct that if nothing is done, sooner or later they are going to deal with the PKK. I think Bush is trying to push it to the later category so that he doesn't have to deal with it. Ideally, someone will come up with a way to stop the Kurds before it gets to that point. I have no faith in that someone being Bush.
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The kurds should have their own nation. The fear of BALKANIZATION is just NWO mind control tactic.
 
On the troops issue, can someone explain to me how the Turkish reaction impacts our troops in any substantive way. If I recall correctly, we have about 60 or 70 troops in all of the Kurdish areas combined.
 
Superfreak said:
exactly Darla... out of fear of what Turkey will do... they are backing off from the full vote. Which is exactly what we were saying the Dems that led the committee and the Reps that voted with them should have done prior to pissing Turkey off with the committee vote. Is it really that hard for you to comprehend the sequence?

1) House committee says they are going to bring up a vote on Armenian genocide

2) Turkey says that could hurt relations between our countries and says they will vote on resolution to authorize force into Iraq

3) House committee says "fuck you" to Turks and votes to move Genocide amendment to full house.

4) Turks say "well fuck you too" and pass authorization to use force bill.

5) Reps and Dems in Congress realize the Turks aren't fucking kidding and are finally backing off.

Now go back in time a bit to when the House committee first started the talk about voting on this resolution right now. That is when it was stated that this would be very ill-timed and could cause harm to the troops.

At the time you stated that you did not care about the resolution (not that you did not care about the troops... I do think you care about them, but that you didn't think this resolution would affect them) Now that it has shown that it could indeed affect them..... will you, like the idiots in DC admit that the resolution was a bad idea at this time?
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Ok, one more time:

I reject the premise that this would in any way harm our troops.

The resolution, any invasion, period.

You think that just because you make a claim, all of a sudden, viola! it's the undisputed truth. But I disputed it then, and I dispute it now.

You are asking me the equivalent of "when did you stop beating up your girlfriend"?

and you keep waiting for me to play, and becoming more and more enraged when I refuse to. But I'm not going to play, because I disagree with the basic premise. It's pretty simple to wrap your mind around.
 
Dungheap said:
On the troops issue, can someone explain to me how the Turkish reaction impacts our troops in any substantive way. If I recall correctly, we have about 60 or 70 troops in all of the Kurdish areas combined.
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What happens if the Turks send thousands of troops across the border and start going into Kurdish towns looking for the PKK? My guess is the whole damn thing blows up into yet another nightmare. We have minimal troops there NOW, because they are not currently needed there as it has been pretty much autonomously run since 1991. The Kurds are helping us with the fight in Iraq. The Turks are our NATO allies. I cannot see us standing on the sidelines and doing nothing should this escalate between the two. I think it far more likely that we send troops into the middle of it to try to keep our two allies apart.
 
Superfreak said:
What happens if the Turks send thousands of troops across the border and start going into Kurdish towns looking for the PKK? My guess is the whole damn thing blows up into yet another nightmare. We have minimal troops there NOW, because they are not currently needed there as it has been pretty much autonomously run since 1991. The Kurds are helping us with the fight in Iraq. The Turks are our NATO allies. I cannot see us standing on the sidelines and doing nothing should this escalate between the two. I think it far more likely that we send troops into the middle of it to try to keep our two allies apart.
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So now it's "your guess"

And I am supposed to change my statement based on your guess.

I see.
 
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