What Does Freedom Mean?

[Dutch Uncle]

And, if she was looking to drop one kid after another only to get more child support while letting them grow up into little hellions, this holds her to account too. Fair and equal.

Dude, that’s the old “welfare queen” argument. Why don’t you just come out and say the n-word?

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Her and/or he being drunk and stupid is not an excuse here. Both should be held equally culpable and both should be held to account. Arguing it's a woman's right to choose and hers and hers alone unfairly and wrongly puts all the onus for the outcome on her.

Sure, try telling that to two idiot kids. Yes on culpability; if the woman/girl wants an abortion, the man/boy can pay half. Fair and equal. No more welfare babies. Win-Win!

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Our drone wars kill 90% civilians and only 10% combatants. Way too many Americans are OK with that. The patriot act, mass surveillance, and data collection violates the Bill of Rights but no one seems to care. The fourth estate is propaganda while real journalists are imprisoned and murdered. The entire economy runs on debt and is about to collapse, again. Most millennials and zoomers will never own a house. Neo-feudalism is here to stay. The US empire is at war with the American people.

Freedom only has a chance after the defeat of empire.

Trump is a pedophile. I have more evidence that he is one than you do that drones kill 9 innocent people for every terrorist killed.

Pedo Trump:

BTW, you’d ever survive the revolt and collapse of the nation. Insane people don’t get very far in a survival situation. Too unpredictable. Better to just get them high and go show them the flowers.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

One of the few differences between the two is that the Taliban is honest about their brutality and subjugation goals. The American taliban still plays coy about it, but wants the same end result.

The American Taliban don’t kill people in the streets….yet.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

Dude, that’s the old “welfare queen” argument. Why don’t you just come out and say the n-word?

Dude it's true. In fact, one of the kids got caught up in something like that. Thankfully, we were able to get him sole custody of his son early on and stick her with the child support bill. Since she was stupid enough to brag about what she made it got jacked higher. I think she's in arrears something like over $50,000 now but he's not pushing it since we never hear from her. I know her credit score is in the negative since she never changed her mailing address for some of the bills, they come to my house. I got one from a helicopter air evac a few years ago for nearly $30,000 she hadn't paid on...
Quite frankly, I doubt she could get a car title or payday loan today.
And, yea, I helped the kid demolish her in the court hearings. I insulted the hell out of her lawyer during one hearing so badly the judge was laughing at him. Man do I hate lawyers...

Anyway she had three kids and was getting child support for all of them on top of Section 8 and other government assistance. She spent the money on oxycodone, and a boob job. Never gave a fuck about the kids. She made the oldest watch the others because she couldn't be bothered to do that... Real piece of shit.

 

[Bulletbob]

There seems to be an attitude that freedom means you can do anything you want, no matter how it affects others.

If that is freedom, is it incumbent upon a society to impose restrictions to freedom?

Since society is organized by government, should the government decide how much freedom individuals should be allowed to have?

Under what criteria?

Should freedom be unencumbered by responsibilities?

Freedom is a word that can mean a lot to a lot of differnt people. Depending on thier political and relgious belifs.
Free speech is a freedom but it has limotations on what you can say.
Freedom can be as simple as being able to choose the food you eat or the type of work you do. Your sex like . there are tons of possible answers and I not sure 8f there 8s a top example no one size fits all.
To me the freedoms i enjoy is 8 can travel anywhere 8n america i want and settle down 8n a home where i want or more then one at one time 8 uad 4 h9mes. 8 can carry a firearm in almost ecery state to protect my selk and other.
I can choose my woman no preplanned marriages.
I think its a tough subject to explain as its complicated.
But to me I think what defines it is personal choice .

 

[Bulletbob]

Sure, try telling that to two idiot kids. Yes on culpability; if the woman/girl wants an abortion, the man/boy can pay half. Fair and equal. No more welfare babies. Win-Win!

Dutch boy your a idiot

 

[Cypress]

An excellent delineation. The OP was focused upon secular freedom, the lower freedom, but your point must be considered as well since there are theocracies that meld both together and, as in our nation, where the population is highly religious.

Consider the discussion on another thread about Biden and abortion.

Being a political junkie, I was always relentlessly focused on the conception of freedom we inherited from John Stewart Mill and the liberal democratic tradition. Aka, freedom to do what one wants as far as it does not harm others.

I spent a long time neglecting that the conception of freedom has many different interpretations in other cultures and intellectual traditions. Plato, Sidartha Guatauma, Jesus, the Hindu philosophers recognized a type of freedom to do as one pleases, but that is not what interested or concerned them. They were focused on a higher spiritual freedom which acted to remove the shackles of ignorance, sin, and the bondage of attachment to illusion and impermanence.

The moral of the story: I believe it is something to think about next time we want to charge into some middle eastern or central Asian country with dreams of introducing them the the fabulous world of western liberal democracy and freedom as defined by John Stewart Mill.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Dude it's true. In fact, one of the kids got caught up in something like that. Thankfully, we were able to get him sole custody of his son early on and stick her with the child support bill. Since she was stupid enough to brag about what she made it got jacked higher. I think she's in arrears something like over $50,000 now but he's not pushing it since we never hear from her. I know her credit score is in the negative since she never changed her mailing address for some of the bills, they come to my house. I got one from a helicopter air evac a few years ago for nearly $30,000 she hadn't paid on...
Quite frankly, I doubt she could get a car title or payday loan today.
And, yea, I helped the kid demolish her in the court hearings. I insulted the hell out of her lawyer during one hearing so badly the judge was laughing at him. Man do I hate lawyers...

Anyway she had three kids and was getting child support for all of them on top of Section 8 and other government assistance. She spent the money on oxycodone, and a boob job. Never gave a fuck about the kids. She made the oldest watch the others because she couldn't be bothered to do that... Real piece of shit.

Thanks. Sorry, but I couldn’t quite make the turn there. Yes, there are real pieces of shit out there and, yes, justice is not always done. Sorry your family had to run into a POS. In the end, my guess (or hope) is that she loses the kids to CPS and ends up a skank ho on a street corner.

Regardless, we were discussing Freedom and whether the government has a right to treat women like baby-making machines with less rights than men.

IMO, if there was no intent of pregnancy and a women becomes pregnant, it’s her call on the abortion with the father paying half.

IF, and AFAIK this isn’t law, she doesn’t want to abort but wants to milk the system and the father, then the father ponies up half the cost of the abortion and it becomes adjudicated that he bears no further responsibility.

Other situations would have to be adjudicated case-by-case such as a situation where both want the child but want nothing to do with each other.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Dutch boy your a idiot

Bobbie, if you want to insult someone, please use proper English to do so. Otherwise you look like a fucking moron.

It’s “you are” or “you’re” an idiot. The word “your” is possessive. Saying “your brain is damaged” is okay but not “your brain damaged”.

You’re old enough to know better, Bobbie. Your retardation, brain damage or whatever it is that has fucked up your brain still allows you to learn. The fact you manage to log on every day and sling 5th grade insults is proof that you’re not completely brain dead.

When using contractions such as “you’re”, sound out the sentence without the contraction to see if it sounds right. It’s okay to write “you’re a fucking moron”, but to ensure proper usage, sound out in your mind “you are a fucking moron” to make sure you are using the correct words.

Quiz: Which of the following below incorrectly use “your” or “you’re”
1) You’re a fucking moron.

2) Your time is coming.

3) Your stupid and lazy.

4) You’re trailer is full of rats and roaches.

5) Your a loser Trump cuck.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Being a political junkie, I was always relentlessly focused on the conception of freedom we inherited from John Stewart Mill and the liberal democratic tradition. Aka, freedom to do what one wants as far as it does not harm others.

I spent a long time neglecting that the conception of freedom has many different interpretations in other cultures and intellectual traditions. Plato, Sidartha Guatauma, Jesus, the Hindu philosophers recognized a type of freedom to do as one pleases, but that is not what interested or concerned them. They were focused on a higher spiritual freedom which acted to remove the shackles of ignorance, sin, and the bondage of attachment to illusion and impermanence.

The moral of the story: I believe it is something to think about next time we want to charge into some middle eastern or central Asian country with dreams of introducing them the the fabulous world of western liberal democracy and freedom as defined by John Stewart Mill.

Thanks for the deep thinking post. Agreed with you and John Stewart Mill*. Mill was certainly a wise, and sometimes humorous, man.

Fareed Zakaria’s 2003 book (initially a 1997 article) “The Future of Freedom: Illiberal Democracy at Home and Abroad” touches on what you just suggested: how American views of freedom can be different from other cultures, especially if their culture is much different than our own. What happened in Iraq and Afghanistan are examples. Reading the book itself would help explain why we failed to make a poor country with a 19th century (if not 7th century) mindset into a 21st century democracy.

https://www.vox.com/conversations/2...-trump-populism-fareed-zakaria-europe-fascism

Wherever it springs up, illiberalism assumes a familiar form: more corruption, greater restrictions on assembly and speech, constraints on the press, retribution against political opponents, oppression of minorities. All of these things are bad, but they’re not necessarily undemocratic. Putin’s Russia is spangled with repressive and illiberal policies, and yet Putin is overwhelmingly popular among Russians. He is, like many near tyrants, a populist.

*QUOTES

• He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that.
• A person may cause evil to others not only by his actions but by his inaction, and in either case he is justly accountable to them for the injury.
• Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.
• Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing .
• One person with a belief is equal to a force of ninety-nine who have only interests.
• I have learned to seek my happiness by limiting my desires, rather than in attempting to satisfy them.
• Ask yourself whether you are happy and you cease to be so.
• No great improvements in the lot of mankind are possible until a great change takes place in the fundamental constitution of their modes of thought.
• Everyone who receives the protection of society owes a return for the benefit.
• The most cogent reason for restricting the interference of government is the great evil of adding unnecessarily to its power.

 

[PoliTalker]

Hello T. A. Gardner,

And, if she was looking to drop one kid after another only to get more child support while letting them grow up into little hellions, this holds her to account too. Fair and equal.

A specific situation which in no way accounts for all possibilities, but if both participated willingly then both share the responsibility for the result.

 

[PoliTalker]

Hello goat,

Capitalists own government. Banksters, the war machine, and big pharma write our laws. The irony is the Taliban defeated empire while Americans do what we are told. Our constitution has been bastardized by crony capitalism. Small business are forced to close as Walmart and Amazon double their profits on a US funded bioweapon.

That is a conspiracy theory which lacks complete evidence.

MSM is state owned propaganda. Empire is lobbying for WWIII so they can default on their debt. All of our conversations end with your denial of a political, economic, and social breakdown. This will happen in our lifetime, so you can't keep pretending we the people already enjoy great freedom. Revolt is here and we have to fight for our freedom.

Only extremists want revolt. Most of America is happy with the status quo. The most aggrieved revolutionaries were already drawn out during the Jan 6th insurrection, and that didn't get very far. Now they are all being hunted down one by one to face justice. Anybody else wants to try will only result in them, too, getting their 15 minutes of fame on the news and then that story scrolls off to be replaced by something else as they face the remainder of their ruined life in prison.

The basic problem with expecting Americans to join a revolt is that most Americans just have it too good to want to give it all up and try to take on the US government in an armed conflict.

 

[PoliTalker]

Hello Cypress,

Being a political junkie, I was always relentlessly focused on the conception of freedom we inherited from John Stewart Mill and the liberal democratic tradition. Aka, freedom to do what one wants as far as it does not harm others.

I spent a long time neglecting that the conception of freedom has many different interpretations in other cultures and intellectual traditions. Plato, Sidartha Guatauma, Jesus, the Hindu philosophers recognized a type of freedom to do as one pleases, but that is not what interested or concerned them. They were focused on a higher spiritual freedom which acted to remove the shackles of ignorance, sin, and the bondage of attachment to illusion and impermanence.

The moral of the story: I believe it is something to think about next time we want to charge into some middle eastern or central Asian country with dreams of introducing them the the fabulous world of western liberal democracy and freedom as defined by John Stewart Mill.

Thanks for that post. That set me into a quick education of John Stewart Mill, with whom I was previously unacquainted.

Mill: "The only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others."

 

[Cypress]

Hello Cypress,



Thanks for that post. That set me into a quick education of John Stewart Mill, with whom I was previously unacquainted.

Mill: "The only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others."

In the political context, we get that conception of freedom from Mill, as well as famously his moral philosophy: the greatest good for the greatest number of people is the gold standard of ethical public policy.

 

[PoliTalker]

Hello Cypress,

In the political context, we get that conception of freedom from Mill, as well as famously his moral philosophy: the greatest good for the greatest number of people is the gold standard of ethical public policy.

Well, the funny thing is, though I had never head of Mill, I reached the same conclusion through sheer logic.

 

[Cypress]

Hello Cypress,



Well, the funny thing is, though I had never head of Mill, I reached the same conclusion through sheer logic.

I think that is because we grow up in a social context that is the legacy of Mill and 19th century liberalism, and we intuitively get it through osmosis, irrespective of whether we know the names of the 19th century political philosophers.

Prior to the Late Enlightenment and Romantic age it wasn't at all clear that the primary function of government was to ensure the greatest good for the greatest number of people

 

[PoliTalker]

Hello Cypress,

I think that is because we grow up in a social context that is the legacy of Mill and 19th century liberalism, and we intuitively get it through osmosis, irrespective of whether we know the names of the 19th century political philosophers.

Prior to the Late Enlightenment and Romantic age it wasn't at all clear that the primary function of government was to ensure the greatest good for the greatest number of people

We are a product of our times.

And our times are a product of us.

 

[Rune]

There seems to be an attitude that freedom means you can do anything you want, no matter how it affects others.

If that is freedom, is it incumbent upon a society to impose restrictions to freedom?

Since society is organized by government, should the government decide how much freedom individuals should be allowed to have?

Under what criteria?

Should freedom be unencumbered by responsibilities?

No you stupid shit stain, the people decide how much freedom the Government has.

You don't know what it means to be an American you pitiful child idiot.

 

[Rune]

Hello Cypress,



We are a product of our times.

And our times are a product of us.

Wrong again ASSHOLE.
We are a product of the greed of the Oligarchy and the Military Industrial Complex as well as the Medical/Pharma Complex.

Take your polyanna bullshit and stuff it up your ass sideways.