What is socialism?

[Anarchon]

Humans have agree on some rules since the hunter-gatherers.

Agreements are made voluntarily. They don't involve the initiation of force, as you would have it.

 

[distraff]

What is socialism?




Well, dictionary.com says,




socialism

. [soh-shuh-liz-uh?m]

ExamplesWord OriginSee more synonyms for socialism on Thesaurus.com

noun

. a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole.

. procedure or practice in accordance with this theory.

. (in Marxist theory) the stage following capitalism in the transition of a society to communism, characterized by the imperfect implementation of collectivist principles.




Well then that means that a “democratic government” being the representation of the “community,” or even a “dictatorship government” claiming to be the representative of the community as a whole is actually a “socialist” operation. In short, socialism by definition is “government” and government by definition is “socialism.”




Government “owns” the “means”, makes the laws, that “control” the “means” of “production” and “distribution.” Break the government’s laws regarding the means of production and you’ll very soon find out who “OWNS” the means of production, right? Examples: Pot, gambling, business and corporation regulations, “HEALTHCARE.”






OK, now that we’ve proven what socialism is, where does capitalism fit in? Well let’s see what the dictionary says “capitalism” is.




capitalism

. [kap-i-tl-iz-uh?m]

ExamplesWord OriginSee more synonyms for capitalism on Thesaurus.com

noun

. an economic system in which investment in and ownership of the means of production, distribution, and exchange of wealth is made and maintained chiefly by private individuals or corporations, especially as contrasted to cooperatively or state-owned means of wealth.

OK then “capitalism” is actually businesses and investments who & where have by law the majority of control over the means of production and distribution as opposed to the government’s control over such.




I find it a hard press to find anyplace on the globe that Actually has such a system that can honestly be called “capitalism.” True capitalism is a myth. The majority control/ownership of, and distribution of anything and everything, everywhere is determined by the amount of freedom to own and distribute everything and anything by a socialist government.




So, capitalism in short is only determined by degree. How capitalist is your country? How much freedom, (what degree), of freedom does your government allow you and your neighbors and the leaders of industry to own and distribute what you/they produce without government interference? How socialist is the healthcare you’re getting? How much freedom of choice do you have? If your government mandates a single payer healthcare system how much freedom of choice will you have? How “SOCIALIST “ will you admit your healthcare is?

People use the world "socialism" in different ways. Some means it to mean communism, others means it to be more like modern Europe. Rather than obsessing over the definition of the word, lets address what actual self-proclaimed socialists believe.

 

[Lightbringer]

Apparently you’ve never noticed particular governments being identified worldwide by their government’s “ideology,” right?

I've noticed that. I've also noticed people using "irregardless" as a word but that doesn't mean it's a word. "Some dude somewhere saying something" is not a good source.

What type of government would you identify China as being?

A Republic.

Is China a little bit pregnant?

No, economically they're socialist.

A socialist country, a capitalist country, or some degree of all but pregnant?

They're socialist.

Or would you just face the wall and call China’s government “A government,” PERIOD?

It's a Republic. So was the Soviet Union.

Correct! However, socialism is an IDEOLOGY that identifies what degree “A GOVERNMENT IS!” Socialism not being a form of government, but rather government being a form of socialism, because that’s what all government is, that’s the point I’m making and it’s you who “don’t” understand that!

It is you who doesn't understand that if this nation ever becomes Democratic Socialist it won't be because of a government mandate and the structure of government won't change much at all. It will happen because society changed and just did it.

On the contrary! That’s not even my point. The point is and has been made by me that “GOVERNMENT IS A FORM OF SOCIALISM” not socialism being a form of government. Socialism as with capitalism is only operational by “DEGREE” in every country. I would be correct to say “the government is a socialist/capitalist government. That describes likely the majority of just about every country in the world today. From that point the argument becomes to what degree is any particular government socialist and or capitalist. To say any country is totally socialist or totally capitalist, I can’t think of any. North Korea is probably closest to totally socialist.

There's a difference between regulation and ownership/control. It sounds to me like you're trying to make more of capitalism than it really is. Taxes and regulation are just part of the cost of doing business and their existence doesn't mean the public has ownership or control of a company.

Every Republican and Democrat is a “democratic socialist.” They all promote and vote for social programs. The question is who’s the most socialist and who’s the most capitalist. Libertarian types are the most capitalist and the R’s & D’s are scattershot in both directions.

I think you're confusing Social Democracy with socialism. Taxing and spending is not socialism. I don't even want to get into a discussion about libertarians with you, I think many of them are confused and I'll leave it at that.

We agree! The socialist know that better than anybody. Communism fails under it’s own weight, but its ideology of lies lives on forever. They’ve infiltrated our schools all levels of them and they’ve educated millions of brainwashed fools even the majority of major media.

That's why I said when/if socialism comes to this country it will be because the people and the business community voluntarily embraced it and there's not a thing the government can do about it.

Like I say, I’m not at all sorry to be 82 years old. My odds are good for missing out on the bankruptcy and revolution. I only wish the fools that are voting for it couldn’t take the people that aren’t with them.

You should play golf with Frank.

 

[Robo]

I've noticed that. I've also noticed people using "irregardless" as a word but that doesn't mean it's a word. "Some dude somewhere saying something" is not a good source.

But “socialism” is a word. Every dictionary I’ve ever looked it up in defines socialism as a “government control of the means of production and distribution.” If you’d like to argue with the dictionaries, that’s OK.

I’m simply claiming that every government is a socialist government by definition. The only argument actually left once we accept that truth is, “to what degree is a particular government socialist and allowing of capitalism.”

No, economically they're socialist.



They're socialist.



It's a Republic. So was the Soviet Union.

OK, Then what makes China “Socialist?”

It is you who doesn't understand that if this nation ever becomes Democratic Socialist it won't be because of a government mandate and the structure of government won't change much at all. It will happen because society changed and just did it.

It won’t change much at all because it’s already controlled by democratic socialism. The change will only be “THE DEGREE” of democratic socialism the country suffers under and the amount of freedoms that are revoked because of it.

There's a difference between regulation and ownership/control. It sounds to me like you're trying to make more of capitalism than it really is. Taxes and regulation are just part of the cost of doing business and their existence doesn't mean the public has ownership or control of a company.

Looks to me like you’re simply either ignoring the power of taxation and regulation, or you’re just denying the truth of its power. Like I always say, “If you honestly, truthfully really ever want to know who owns and controls anything, just avoid paying taxes or violating a government regulation, you’ll get a very quick education about ownership.”

That's why I said when/if socialism comes to this country it will be because the people and the business community voluntarily embraced it and there's not a thing the government can do about it..

“If it ever comes to this country?” Then you’re denying it’s already here in any form, right? I strongly disagree and will relish in opposing that argument every time since all of the evidence is on the opposing side of that argument. I’ll look forward to your next post.

 

[Lightbringer]

But “socialism” is a word. Every dictionary I’ve ever looked it up in defines socialism as a “government control of the means of production and distribution.” If you’d like to argue with the dictionaries, that’s OK.

I’m simply claiming that every government is a socialist government by definition. The only argument actually left once we accept that truth is, “to what degree is a particular government socialist and allowing of capitalism.”





OK, Then what makes China “Socialist?”





It won’t change much at all because it’s already controlled by democratic socialism. The change will only be “THE DEGREE” of democratic socialism the country suffers under and the amount of freedoms that are revoked because of it.







Looks to me like you’re simply either ignoring the power of taxation and regulation, or you’re just denying the truth of its power. Like I always say, “If you honestly, truthfully really ever want to know who owns and controls anything, just avoid paying taxes or violating a government regulation, you’ll get a very quick education about ownership.”




“If it ever comes to this country?” Then you’re denying it’s already here in any form, right? I strongly disagree and will relish in opposing that argument every time since all of the evidence is on the opposing side of that argument. I’ll look forward to your next post.

Some people refer to America as a Democracy, even on this board. Are we?

What makes China socialist? Their economic system.

I know you're claiming that government = socialism. I disagree with you, that's the whole point of our discussion and I've already told you why I disagree with that take...several times now.

 

[kudzu]

Agreements are made voluntarily. They don't involve the initiation of force, as you would have it.

You must be a hermit that lives off grid.

 

[Robo]

Some people refer to America as a Democracy, even on this board. Are we?

America is a "Constitutional Republic" governed by a mostly democratic process of electing representatives, sworn only to preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States, such representation is determined by a democratic vote of the people, except for the President of the United States who's elected by an Electoral College vote of electors from each of the several states.

What makes China socialist? Their economic system.

How does China's economic system differ from the economic system of the United States?

I know you're claiming that government = socialism. I disagree with you, that's the whole point of our discussion and I've already told you why I disagree with that take...several times now.

I know, I'm still waiting for your evidence all I have so far is your opinions. I've posted dictionary definitions of the word "socialism" and argued that it proves that government is socialist by definition.

 

[iolo]

America is a "Constitutional Republic" governed by a mostly democratic process of electing representatives, sworn only to preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States, such representation is determined by a democratic vote of the people, except for the President of the United States who's elected by an Electoral College vote of electors from each of the several states.



How does China's economic system differ from the economic system of the United States?



I know, I'm still waiting for your evidence all I have so far is your opinions. I've posted dictionary definitions of the word "socialism" and argued that it proves that government is socialist by definition.

The USA is theoretically a 'constitutional republic'. In practice, as we all know, it is a plutocracy, run for and by the very rich. China, similarly, is theoretically a communist republic, but in practice a plutocracy, run by and for the very rich.

 

[Lightbringer]

The USA is theoretically a 'constitutional republic'. In practice, as we all know, it is a plutocracy, run for and by the very rich. China, similarly, is theoretically a communist republic, but in practice a plutocracy, run by and for the very rich.

I can't argue with this. Good to see you lucid again.

 

[Lightbringer]

America is a "Constitutional Republic" governed by a mostly democratic process of electing representatives, sworn only to preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States, such representation is determined by a democratic vote of the people, except for the President of the United States who's elected by an Electoral College vote of electors from each of the several states.



How does China's economic system differ from the economic system of the United States?



I know, I'm still waiting for your evidence all I have so far is your opinions. I've posted dictionary definitions of the word "socialism" and argued that it proves that government is socialist by definition.

Don't talk to me about opinions. You are the one who is making an argument that government = socialism yet posted a definition of socialism that didn't mention government at all.

 

[Flash]

1% ruling 99% doesn't fly anymore!

It never did. That is just imaginary talk by those who feel victimized because they don't think they have any control over their lives--so they find boogeymen who are responsible for their perceived helplessness--sometimes it is astronomy (the stars make them failures), Illuminati, Bilderbergers, Trilateral Commission, CFR, corporations, the 1%, the "liberal media," the establishment, the "power structure." It is mostly 1950's C. Wright Mills and Vance Packard crap. But it has been around forever and is the basis for Populism--the "little guy" versus the powerful special interests.

If people are constantly told the "rich and powerful" control America they believe it because it is much simpler than studying our pluralistic decision-making system.

 

[Flash]

Humans have agree on some rules since the hunter-gatherers.

Agreed, and we settle our differences and make decisions based on those rules. The Constitution is one source of those rules and was specifically designed to prevent the tyranny of the majority.

 

[montgomery]

It never did. That is just imaginary talk by those who feel victimized because they don't think they have any control over their lives--so they find boogeymen who are responsible for their perceived helplessness--sometimes it is astronomy (the stars make them failures), Illuminati, Bilderbergers, Trilateral Commission, CFR, corporations, the 1%, the "liberal media," the establishment, the "power structure." It is mostly 1950's C. Wright Mills and Vance Packard crap. But it has been around forever and is the basis for Populism--the "little guy" versus the powerful special interests.

If people are constantly told the "rich and powerful" control America they believe it because it is much simpler than studying our pluralistic decision-making system.

Completely wrong. You can believe it for the same reason why you need to believe that Trump's fascist tactics are in appealing to his followers to hate minorities. Those minorities are your reason why your American way lot in life is so shitty and inferior to ordinary people in the world's happiest countries. You've obviously being screwed but you don't understand who is doing the screwing.

 

[Flash]

I know, I'm still waiting for your evidence all I have so far is your opinions. I've posted dictionary definitions of the word "socialism" and argued that it proves that government is socialist by definition.

If government is socialist by definition that makes all governments socialist. Socialism is an economic system that can be part of any type of governmental system. Socialism deals with the production and distribution of goods and services which are not produced by governments in capitalistic systems.

Socialism is when the government runs ship building, electricity, car manufacturers, oil companies, refineries, banks, steel mills, etc. How many of these businesses are run by government determines the degree of socialism in that nation.

 

[kudzu]

Agreed, and we settle our differences and make decisions based on those rules. The Constitution is one source of those rules and was specifically designed to prevent the tyranny of the majority.

Well, if one doesn't agree to follow the rules I think one would have to live as a hermit off grid. Libertarians are such flakes.

 

[Flash]

Completely wrong. You can believe it for the same reason why you need to believe that Trump's fascist tactics are in appealing to his followers to hate minorities. Those minorities are your reason why your American way lot in life is so shitty and inferior to ordinary people in the world's happiest countries. You've obviously being screwed but you don't understand who is doing the screwing.

You are a moron if you think I need to believe anything about Trump's tactics. I never said anything about Trump---that is a wildly simplistic generalization on your part that must categorize everything into two left or right.

My quality of life is fine. I am not so helpless that I blame others for not being more successful, happy, or wealthy. Such attitudes are the result of low self-efficacy that leads a person to believe he has no control over his own life. I don't make up evil forces who are screwing me and I am not jealous because they are wealthier than I am or living in a "happier" country (with higher levels of alcoholism and suicide).

 

[Lightbringer]

You are a moron if you think I need to believe anything about Trump's tactics. I never said anything about Trump---that is a wildly simplistic generalization on your part that must categorize everything into two left or right.

My quality of life is fine. I am not so helpless that I blame others for not being more successful, happy, or wealthy. Such attitudes are the result of low self-efficacy that leads a person to believe he has no control over his own life. I don't make up evil forces who are screwing me and I am not jealous because they are wealthier than I am or living in a "happier" country (with higher levels of alcoholism and suicide).

montdonkeysucker is an idiot.

 

[montgomery]

You are a moron if you think I need to believe anything about Trump's tactics. I never said anything about Trump---that is a wildly simplistic generalization on your part that must categorize everything into two left or right.

My quality of life is fine. I am not so helpless that I blame others for not being more successful, happy, or wealthy. Such attitudes are the result of low self-efficacy that leads a person to believe he has no control over his own life. I don't make up evil forces who are screwing me and I am not jealous because they are wealthier than I am or living in a "happier" country (with higher levels of alcoholism and suicide).

I know! You've sold out to the American way and your explanation is exactly what I would expect.

I don't know about you personally so I only suspect, but I know the statistics overall about ordinary Americans and so there's nothing you can say that will fool me on that. If you think you're not being screwed by the American way system of bullshit then good for you. I'm sure that if you had a closer look at the socially responsible capitalist countries of the world you would feel guilt and feel like an unworthy American who doesn't appreciate his country/freedom/and other bullshit scams. And then hair would start sprouting on the palms of your hands!

I can't help those who refuse to be helped. Luv from Canada.

 

[montgomery]

montdonkeysucker is an idiot.

I have you feeling the way I want you to feel about me. The resentment comes first. Read my reply to the flash.

 

[Lightbringer]

I have you feeling the way I want you to feel about me. The resentment comes first. Read my reply to the flash.

And here's the little bitch.

Yeah, suck my dick poseur.