Why The Right Will Never Allow Solution To Islamic Jihad Problem...

Of course I am speaking as a Christian.... because I AM a Christian. Do I sin? WOuld I have cut off the ear of the Roman guard who came to take Jesus away from Gethsemane? I certainly would. The point is.... you talk nice like sugar wouldn't melt in your mouth and then turn right around and do what you said you wouldn't do. That makes me angry....but not angry enough to break my part of our little arrangement like YOU did.

You were the one who said "no bringing it back up again...no veiled references to it in the future... " and you were the one who brought it back up again.

But why I should expect anything more than deceit and dishonesty and broken promises from you, I have no idea
 
I don't recall you ever accepting that agreement, and I didn't "bring up" anything, except your pompous hypocrisy. If you want to pull the Maineman Fainting Goat Routine here, and pretend you've been victimized, that's fine. I can live with what I have said, unlike you.
 
not "victimized", just lied to. but it isn't the first and no doubt won't be the last. I'd bet $100 on that.

And I can live with every word I have ever said, and I admit to them all, not run away from them like you do. fucking coward.
 
Then you are suggesting we attack the Muslim clerics and mullahs. I agree, we should be bombing the mosques where this radicalism emanates from, and eradicate the schools and universities where this hate is taught. I think we've been far too politically correct in fighting this war, and it's time to take off the gloves, and do as you say, attack the real problem.

No, Dixie. You don't address these problems by being bullet-headed and wanting to 'take out the whole fuckin' village, man!'.

That is what has messed the US up so far in its entire foreign policy history, not just the problem of Islamic extremism.

By attack, I don't mean bombing people. I mean that we must work on that that causes Muslims to radicalise, to undermine them.

The extremists in their madrasses and mosques can huff and puff until they are blue in the face, but unless their are genuine problems for them to work on, they will be ignored by the Muslim street.

By attacking the link that causes Muslims to radicalise I mean addressing the genuine causes that the extremists use, forcing a solution to the Israel / Palestine problem, Chechnya, western links to dictatorial governments.

Once we have removed the genuine political issues, the extremists will be undermined, their arguments will have no substance and their support amongst the Muslim street will evaporate.

Then the extremists can be arrested / killed without it creating more generations of extremists.

If we follow your model, we will rush headlong into open warfare between the west and the Muslim world.
 
The link between the people and the terrorists, the link that garners support and recruits for them, is the radical perversion of Islam, preached from the mosques by the mullahs and clerics, and taught in the schools and universities. I agree, we should attack that!

Dixie, you have the same misunderstanding of the situation that the WH has, which explains why we are losing the fight against Muslim extremism.

The Imams and Alims that radicalise Muslims can only do so because there are genuine political causes of greavence, that they can play on. The extremists point to these greavences and preach that Muslims should 'defend their brothers'.

Without these genuine greavences, the Imams would simply be waffling hot air.

If we follow your plan, and simply attack mosques and madrasses, the extremists will have another cause celebre' to point to.

If we resolve the genuine political problems that they use to radicalise, this undermines their message and leaves them isolated.

Once they are isolated, the extremists can be quietly picked off one by one, either arrested or killed, without inflaming the Muslim street.
 
To sit here and throw out platitudes, like "we need to attack the root of the problem, blah.. blah.." is not going to ultimately solve the problem, unless you are serious about facing it.

First, you need to look deeper into the problem than saying 'these Imams are corrupting Islam' and think that that is the root of the problem.

Without underlying political problems, the Imams wouldn't be able to play on them. Their preaching would be merely hot air, and wouldn't work to radicalise the Muslim people.

If you are serious about undermining and destroying the extremists, you need to be serious about pulling the chains of Israel and Palestine, economically forcing them to the table to produce a plan for a VIABLE two-state solution, pulling Putin's chain to brought autonomy to Chechnya, cease upholding corrupt regimes such as the House of Saud, resolve the Iraq problem and tone down the confrontational rhetoric.

If we are to defeat Islamic extremism, we can't use the American way of simply bashing away at them with overwhelming force. This deepens the problem, as we have seen in Iraq. We need to box clever.
 
AnyOldIron said:
To sit here and throw out platitudes, like "we need to attack the root of the problem, blah.. blah.." is not going to ultimately solve the problem, unless you are serious about facing it.

First, you need to look deeper into the problem than saying 'these Imams are corrupting Islam' and think that that is the root of the problem.

Without underlying political problems, the Imams wouldn't be able to play on them. Their preaching would be merely hot air, and wouldn't work to radicalise the Muslim people.

If you are serious about undermining and destroying the extremists, you need to be serious about pulling the chains of Israel and Palestine, economically forcing them to the table to produce a plan for a VIABLE two-state solution, pulling Putin's chain to brought autonomy to Chechnya, cease upholding corrupt regimes such as the House of Saud, resolve the Iraq problem and tone down the confrontational rhetoric.

If we are to defeat Islamic extremism, we can't use the American way of simply bashing away at them with overwhelming force. This deepens the problem, as we have seen in Iraq. We need to box clever.
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Here we have an excellent illustration of another of the genuine, fundamental differences between liberal-progressive thought, on the one hand, and conservative-regressive thought on the other. Progressives tend to be more interested in the reasons why people believe and behave as they do. Conservatives tend to treat people as inscrutible, unknowable black boxes, sovereign and largely unchangeable.

A progressive knows that people's behavior and beliefs arise from rationally describable causes, even when the beliefs themselves are distinctly irrational. Alter the causes and you can alter behavior. Conservatives tend to believe that there are simply good people, who agree with you, and bad people, who don't, and that there's little point in trying to alter the beliefs of bad people.
 
Originally Posted by AnyOldIron View Post

First, you need to look deeper into the problem than saying 'these Imams are corrupting Islam' and think that that is the root of the problem.

Without underlying political problems, the Imams wouldn't be able to play on them. Their preaching would be merely hot air, and wouldn't work to radicalise the Muslim people.

If you are serious about undermining and destroying the extremists, you need to be serious about pulling the chains of Israel and Palestine, economically forcing them to the table to produce a plan for a VIABLE two-state solution, pulling Putin's chain to brought autonomy to Chechnya, cease upholding corrupt regimes such as the House of Saud, resolve the Iraq problem and tone down the confrontational rhetoric.

If we are to defeat Islamic extremism, we can't use the American way of simply bashing away at them with overwhelming force. This deepens the problem, as we have seen in Iraq.

We need to box clever.


This is entirely sensible.

But, it's too complicated for bush fans, who can only respond to slogans like "evil doers" and "you're either with us or against us!".
 
But, it's too complicated for bush fans, who can only respond to slogans like "evil doers" and "you're either with us or against us!".
//

Yep simple soloutions for simple minds.
 
The question is whether the Dems have it in them to stand up to Israel and demand they (and the Pals) reach a solution. (through severe economic coercion.)

If they do, we might still win this.
 
AnyOldIron said:
The question is whether the Dems have it in them to stand up to Israel and demand they (and the Pals) reach a solution. (through severe economic coercion.)

If they do, we might still win this.
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LOL. The problem with that is that the President has sole discretion on Foreign Policy according to the constitution.
 
LOL. The problem with that is that the President has sole discretion on Foreign Policy according to the constitution.

Then we are truely fucked.... :(
 
AnyOldIron said:
LOL. The problem with that is that the President has sole discretion on Foreign Policy according to the constitution.

Then we are truely fucked.... :(
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Not really, two years is a short time and Bush has shown signs that he gets the idea that he screwed up... I mean, the guy he is replacing Rumsfeld with is pretty much the anti-Rumsfeld...
 
Not really, two years is a short time and Bush has shown signs that he gets the idea that he screwed up... I mean, the guy he is replacing Rumsfeld with is pretty much the anti-Rumsfeld...

But will Bush ever stand up to Israel? Will a Democratic POTUS, if it was possible to find a resolution for our current problems through forcing Israel (and Pals) to create a viable two-state solution?
 
AnyOldIron said:
Not really, two years is a short time and Bush has shown signs that he gets the idea that he screwed up... I mean, the guy he is replacing Rumsfeld with is pretty much the anti-Rumsfeld...

But will Bush ever stand up to Israel? Will a Democratic POTUS, if it was possible to find a resolution for our current problems through forcing Israel (and Pals) to create a viable two-state solution?
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I don't know, honestly. I think it is the only viable solution. Bush took it one step further by actively promoting that solution. Each in succession appears to be pushing it more in that direction. I just wish they'd be a bit quicker about it...
 
The extremists in their madrasses and mosques can huff and puff until they are blue in the face, but unless their are genuine problems for them to work on, they will be ignored by the Muslim street.

I hate to break it to you, but there will always be problems. When there are no problems, they will create problems. If the Muslim street ignored them, we wouldn't have a problem now, so that little theory is shot to hell on its face.

If you are serious about undermining and destroying the extremists, you need to be serious about pulling the chains of Israel and Palestine, economically forcing them to the table to produce a plan for a VIABLE two-state solution, pulling Putin's chain to brought autonomy to Chechnya, cease upholding corrupt regimes such as the House of Saud, resolve the Iraq problem and tone down the confrontational rhetoric.

The Palestinians do not want a "two-state solution" to the problem, they want a NO JEW solution, and that isn't going to happen. You talk about "upholding corrupt regimes" and I just shake my head, do you not realize, there is no such thing as a non-corrupt regime? How do we "uphold" any of them? By buying their oil? By trying to be diplomatic in our relations? By supporting the "corrupt regime" over the radicals? It seems to me, you just want the US to break diplomatic ties with Saudi Arabia and Isreal, and proclaim them "corrupt regimes" that we can't work with. I don't see this as conducive with solving the problem in the middle east, with radical Islamic extremists.

What you need to do, is wake up and smell the coffee, and try to understand, we do not live in a perfect world, we can not solve all the problems of the world, and trying to defeat radical Islamic terrorism, is going to take more than pretty words and wishful thinking.
 
The extremists in their madrasses and mosques can huff and puff until they are blue in the face, but unless their are genuine problems for them to work on, they will be ignored by the Muslim street.

"I hate to break it to you, but there will always be problems. When there are no problems, they will create problems. If the Muslim street ignored them, we wouldn't have a problem now, so that little theory is shot to hell on its face. "

that doesn't pass the straight face test...the muslim street did not ignore tham becuase there are socio-economic problems that extremists capitalize upon!

If you are serious about undermining and destroying the extremists, you need to be serious about pulling the chains of Israel and Palestine, economically forcing them to the table to produce a plan for a VIABLE two-state solution, pulling Putin's chain to brought autonomy to Chechnya, cease upholding corrupt regimes such as the House of Saud, resolve the Iraq problem and tone down the confrontational rhetoric.

"The Palestinians do not want a "two-state solution" to the problem, they want a NO JEW solution, and that isn't going to happen. "

since when have you been appointed as spokesman for the palestinian people? I personally know dozens and dozens of palestinians who would be perfectly happy with a two state solution

"What you need to do, is wake up and smell the coffee, and try to understand, we do not live in a perfect world, we can not solve all the problems of the world, and trying to defeat radical Islamic terrorism, is going to take more than pretty words and wishful thinking."

trying to militarily defeat islamic extremism is destined for defeat. We will not ever convince arabs to stop wanting to kill us by killing arabs, unless we intend to kill all the arabs.
 
I hate to break it to you, but there will always be problems. When there are no problems, they will create problems. If the Muslim street ignored them, we wouldn't have a problem now, so that little theory is shot to hell on its face.

There is a huge difference in recruitment and gathering supplies terms between genuine issues such as Israel / Pal, and those trumped up by extremists.

The extremists will still huff and puff, they'll moan and groan, but the results of that, if genuine problems are resolved, won't be numbers of Muslim youth being radicalised.

Remove the real factors that the extremists play on, and the extremist's message will become increasingly irrelevant to the audience to which it was intended.

The Palestinians do not want a "two-state solution" to the problem,

Before Israel's recent 'defensive action', senior members of Hamas were looking towards a two state solution.

"Palestinian militant group Hamas has agreed to a document backing a two-state solution to the conflict with Israel, officials say.
The initiative, devised by Palestinian prisoners held in Israeli jails, implicitly recognises the Jewish state. "

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5121164.stm

The two sides might never be best friends, and the rhetoric will always be harsh between them, but the possibility is there, if Israel allows a VIABLE Palestinian state, rather than one dictated on their terms.

How do we "uphold" any of them?

Since the Administration of FDR, the US has had a deal with the dictatorial regime of the house of Saud, meaning that the US will protect and uphold the government in exchange for guaranteeing access to their oil markets. Do you really think GW1 was about baby-wards in Kuwait?

It was CIA interrogators working with the Egyptian Nasser government that tortured members of the previously only-political Muslim Brotherhood, that led to that organisation taking up violence and morphing into Egyptian Islamic Jihad.

Then you have the US support for Israeli terrorism, which they call 'defensive actions', but ultimately is still the targeting of civilians for political gain.

And don't forget historical examples, such as installation of the Shah.

Cease this sort of activity and you might have a chance....

It isn't me that needs to smell the coffee, it is those who think that the US can resolve this problem by throwing its weight about. It is this that has created the beast, it certainly can't slay it....
 
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