"God is dead"

Cypress said:
There is enough evidence from second hand sources and anecdotal accounts to leave no doubt with scholars of antiquity that Socrates existed. Plato, Aristotle, the playwright Aristophanes all make reference to their first or second hand knowlege of the historical Socrates.

Scholars claim that Socrates deliberately did not write because he felt written words corrupted the purity of ideas, were inconsistent with the dialectic method, and written narrative can always be misconstrued and misrepresented.
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Jesus didn't write either so scholars believe he was the alter ego of Paul. How much more evidence is there for Socrates existence than there is for Jesus? Both were ghosts.
 
goat said:
Jesus didn't write either so scholars believe he was the alter ego of Paul. How much more evidence is there for Socrates existence than there is for Jesus? Both were ghosts.
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The balance of evidence is that Jesus and Socrates were historical figures.

Nothing about antiquity can be proven with 100 percent certainty.

The historicity of Socrates is attested to by multiple reputable sources from antiquity. There is no credible reason to think there was a widespread conspiracy to invent a fictional Socrates.

The historicity of Jesus is attested to by Christian, Jewish, and pagan sources. Moreover, Jews of the first century AD would not have made up a story about a Messiah who was humiliated, tortured, and executed without even putting up a fight, by the Romans.

It strains credulity to believe a story like that was made up out of whole cloth. Jews of the first century were expecting a Messiah of great power and grandeur. A meek messiah who was humiliated and tortured by their enemies, the Romans, is about the last kind of fable they would have made up.
 
Cypress said:
The balance of evidence is that Jesus and Socrates were historical figures.

Nothing about antiquity can be proven with 100 percent certainty.

The historicity of Socrates is attested to by multiple reputable sources from antiquity. There is no credible reason to think there was a widespread conspiracy to invent a fictional Socrates.

The historicity of Jesus is attested to by Christian, Jewish, and pagan sources. Moreover, Jews of the first century AD would not have made up a story about a Messiah who was humiliated, tortured, and executed without even putting up a fight, by the Romans.

It strains credulity to believe a story like that was made up out of whole cloth. Jews of the first century were expecting a Messiah of great power and grandeur. A meek messiah who was humiliated and tortured by their enemies, the Romans, is about the last kind of fable they would have made up.
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Go back and read your take on Nietzsche and religion. There is a camp of scholars who argue that Socrates is the alter ego of Plato. Hitchens makes a good comparison of Socrates and Jesus being ghost. Philosophers are not real until they write it down.
 
goat said:
Nietzsche may have been in the camp that sees Socrates as the alter ego of Plato. I'm in that camp too. When Plato was afraid to say something, he had Socrates say it for him. What evidence is there for Socrates walking the earth?
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There is no evidence you exist as more than a bot to entertain me with your stupidity. :laugh:
 
Cypress said:
“God Is Dead”—Nietzsche and Christianity

Friedrich Nietzsche famously announced that “God is Dead.” This is by no means merely a thesis about religion and religious belief. It relates to the whole mind-set of the West, the insistence on Eternity, the obsession with unity and coherence, the demands for predictability and justice in a world that is neither predictable or just. Nietzsche argues it is possible, is to rid ourselves of the pathologies of guilt and sin.

1. Nietzsche disliked some things about Christianity, particularly what Kierkegaard calls “Christendom,” the Christian mob.
2. Nietzsche admired those exceptional Christians (including Jesus) who really lived what they claimed to believe in.
3. He objected to the hypocritical and self-righteous attitudes that some Christians take toward their religious beliefs.

Nietzsche rejected Christianity, but he also accepted it as a necessary step in human evolution. It served an important historical function:
1. Nietzsche praised the spirituality of Christianity.
2. He saw the original teaching of Jesus as having been perverted by the Church.

Nietzsche declared war on the concepts of guilt and sin. Like Freud, he finds guilt and sin psychologically debilitating.

Nietzsche did retain the notion of conscience:
1. Nietzsche did not give up spirituality but transformed it.
2. Nietzsche wants to return us to a state of innocence, as opposed to guilt.
3. He wants to return us to self-esteem, after science has shown us that we are not the center of the universe or the pinnacle of nature.
4. Nietzsche calls for a spirituality of this world.



Source credit: Professor Robert C. Solomon, University of Texas at Austin
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Guilt and sin and duality of nature of man is a christian concept, in Judaism god is one, nothing exists outside of god , no co-gods no devils , no everlasting hell fire, Humans are intrinsically good, no "original" sin
 
guno said:
Guilt and sin and duality of nature of man is a christian concept, in Judaism god is one, nothing exists outside of god , no co-gods no devils , no everlasting hell fire, Humans are intrinsically good, no "original" sin
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The original sin thing, IIRC, came about a century or two after Jesus. I don't buy it either. What is the Judaic view of the Tree of Knowledge story?


oNCHd3j.jpg
 
Dutch Uncle said:
The original sin thing, IIRC, came about a century or two after Jesus. I don't buy it either. What is the Judaic view of the Tree of Knowledge story?


oNCHd3j.jpg
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In Jewish tradition, the Tree of Knowledge and the eating of its fruit represents the beginning of the mixture of good and evil together.

Satan in Judaism is not a physical being ruling the underworld, rather, in the Torah, the word Satan indicates “accuser,” “hinderer” or “tempter.” Satan is therefore more an illusory obstacle in one’s way - such as temptation and evil doings - keeping one from completing the responsibilities of tikkun olam (fixing the world). Satan is the evil inclination to veer off the path of righteousness and faithfulness in God.



The Hebrew Bible , Satan is ultimately subordinate to God, carrying out his purpose on earth.

The Book of Job is sometimes cited to support the claim that the Jewish view of Satan as an agent of God is different from the Christian view, which sees Satan as an autonomous force opposed to God. In the story, Satan inflicts suffering on a human being and seeks to induce him to sin — but only with God’s permission.

The Torah states Isaiah 45:7 reads, “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.”
 
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guno said:
In Jewish tradition, the Tree of Knowledge and the eating of its fruit represents the beginning of the mixture of good and evil together.

Satan in Judaism is not a physical being ruling the underworld, rather, in the Torah, the word Satan indicates “accuser,” “hinderer” or “tempter.” Satan is therefore more an illusory obstacle in one’s way - such as temptation and evil doings - keeping one from completing the responsibilities of tikkun olam (fixing the world). Satan is the evil inclination to veer off the path of righteousness and faithfulness in God.

The Book of Job is sometimes cited to support the claim that the Jewish view of Satan as an agent of God is different from the Christian view, which sees Satan as an autonomous force opposed to God. In the story, Satan inflicts suffering on a human being and seeks to induce him to sin — but only with God’s permission.
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Thanks. Some Christians even see Satan as more as God's Prosecutor rather than the source of all evil.

That never made sense to me since, if God is all powerful and all knowing, why couldn't God foresee Lucifer's revolt? It makes more sense that God would create Lucifer for contrast in man's free will; can't have free will if one doesn't have a choice or a range of choices.

Any ideas on where the story of Lucifer and the war in Heaven came about? Does Judaism see Lucifer as more of an agent of God rather than an opponent.
 
Dutch Uncle said:
Thanks. Some Christians even see Satan as more as God's Prosecutor rather than the source of all evil.

That never made sense to me since, if God is all powerful and all knowing, why couldn't God foresee Lucifer's revolt? It makes more sense that God would create Lucifer for contrast in man's free will; can't have free will if one doesn't have a choice or a range of choices.

Any ideas on where the story of Lucifer and the war in Heaven came about? Does Judaism see Lucifer as more of an agent of God rather than an opponent.
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yep God is without form and omnipresent
 
Dutch Uncle said:
Thanks. Some Christians even see Satan as more as God's Prosecutor rather than the source of all evil.

That never made sense to me since, if God is all powerful and all knowing, why couldn't God foresee Lucifer's revolt? It makes more sense that God would create Lucifer for contrast in man's free will; can't have free will if one doesn't have a choice or a range of choices.

Any ideas on where the story of Lucifer and the war in Heaven came about? Does Judaism see Lucifer as more of an agent of God rather than an opponent.
Click to expand...

Satan in Judaism is not a physical being ruling the underworld, rather, in the Torah, the word Satan indicates “accuser,” “hinderer” or “tempter.” Satan is therefore more an illusory obstacle in one’s way - such as temptation and evil doings - keeping one from completing the responsibilities of tikkun olam (fixing the world). Satan is the evil inclination to veer off the path of righteousness and faithfulness in God.
 
The term “original sin” is unknown to the Jewish Scriptures, and the Church’s teachings on this doctrine are antithetical to the core principles of the Torah and its prophets



The doctrine of original sin is totally unacceptable to Jews , Jews believe that man enters the world free of sin, with a soul that is pure and innocent and untainted.
 
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