Heaven & Hell (Open to Everyone)

[Dutch Uncle]

if you believe life existed before cells you are truely a science denier.....

Proof you're either ignorant or a liar.

https://bio.libretexts.org/Bookshel...Invisible_World/1.03:_Types_of_Microorganisms
While we typically think of microorganisms as being unicellular, there are also many multicellular organisms that are too small to be seen without a microscope. Some microbes, such as viruses, are even acellular (not composed of cells).

Microorganisms are found in each of the three domains of life: Archaea, Bacteria, and Eukarya. Microbes within the domains Bacteria and Archaea are all prokaryotes (their cells lack a nucleus), whereas microbes in the domain Eukarya are eukaryotes (their cells have a nucleus). Some microorganisms, such as viruses, do not fall within any of the three domains of life. In this section, we will briefly introduce each of the broad groups of microbes. Later chapters will go into greater depth about the diverse species within each group...

...Viruses
Viruses are acellular microorganisms, which means they are not composed of cells. Essentially, a virus consists of proteins and genetic material—either DNA or RNA, but never both—that are inert outside of a host organism. However, by incorporating themselves into a host cell, viruses are able to co-opt the host’s cellular mechanisms to multiply and infect other hosts. Viruses can infect all types of cells, from human cells to the cells of other microorganisms. In humans, viruses are responsible for numerous diseases, from the common cold to deadly Ebola (Figure 1.3.8
). However, many viruses do not cause disease.

 

[Yakuda]

Into the Night would be a great person to ask this question. He's a big fan of the idea that the universe has always existed. You should ask him.

I take the Einstein/Hawking view that there was never a point in time when the universe did not exist. This becomes even further refined by whether one is speaking from an internal frame of reference or an external one. To the internal observer, time began with the singularity. To the external observer, time dilates more and more as one extends into the past, approaching the limit of infinite dilation as one approaches the singularity and time virtually stops, i.e. the external observer will never reach the singularity, no matter how much time he runs back the external clock.

Thanks for the suggestion but I'm not that interested as I don't buy the eternal universe argument any more than I buy the multiverse argument. Back to my painter example. A pollock and a Michelangelo are nothing alike except for putting paint on a service. A monkey has done exactly what pollock has done regarding paint on a surface. Both however still pointer to a painter. I'd suggest it borders on insane to think that something as complicated as the universe didn't have a creator if something as simple as slapping paint on a surface is done by a monkey.

 

[Stone]

Can you even imagine anyone being so daft or arrogant to actually believe they could sway my opinions on God and the Bible on some obscure message board? ????? Im sorry but for old times sake............................................

 

[Cypress]

You are not in any way a dogmatic Christian. That said, the reality is that the story of the Virgin Birth, dying for the sins of the world, and then coming back from the dead is laughable. 'Hey honey, I'm pregnant, but it was God, not my horny boss. I got that promotion on merit. In fact, I'm STILL a Virgin!'

And yet the prime directive of Christianity is that you believe that utter bullshit story. And if you don't, you will burn in hell. Um...... no thanks?

It's the fire and brimstone Protestant preachers who push that eternal hellfire storyline.

Fire and brimstone Protestants are a minority of world Christianity.

The pope says hell is not a literal place.

Catholic doctrine is that unbaptized babies and virtuous pagans are not damned. They go to Limbo. Not to hell.

I actually like the idea in principle of Hitler, Stalin, and Timothy McVeigh burning in hell.

Most lay christians believe eternal life is open to people of other religions.

Are Heaven and Hell actual places that people go when they die, or do they metaphorically describe states of the soul?
This debate played out in 1999 when Pope John Paul II described Heaven and Hell as being states of the soul rather than physical places. Heaven is the state of the soul in communion with God and in God’s presence; Hell is the state of being away from God, alienated and separated from one’s creator.

The Afterlife: Heaven
Exclusivists believe that only Christians can be saved. Pluralists see people of each religion as eligible to enter Heaven as believers in their own religion.

In a recent survey, 83 percent of Christians in mainline Protestant churches, 79 percent of Catholics, and 57 percent of Evangelical Protestants said “many religions can lead to eternal life.” This is a dramatic increase from the early 20th century, when fewer than 10 percent of Christians were pluralists.

I think some of the fantastical and supernatural stories about Jesus are embellished and concocted.

But I think what they are essentially pointing to was that Jesus was an extraordinary individual with a message that really resonated with people. Enough so that a substantial written and oral record of him was firmly established in the years after his execution.

That is actually remarkable. It was unheard of in antiquity for a peasant to be preserved in literature.

Jesus was just a peasant from a backwater Roman province. That's quite a contrast to other religious leaders. Moses, Muhammad, The Buddha were already great leaders of nations and established religions within their own lifetimes.

 

[Margot]

Fuck you. Seriously. I was actually trying to be respectful of you but you never learned Luke 6:31.

So fuck right off.

I'll stand by my statement.

 

[Margot]

No aethist believes that the universe was created by an accident of cells coming together.

I guess God gave you a brain so he could guarantee you would never use it.

Enlighten me ,how do atheists say we got in this situation?

 

[Margot]

The King James translated it as “kill”. I haven’t opened a newer version, my version says “kill”.

This is the problem with many terms in the Bible, there’s a lot of errors in translation.

Then you go to the Holy Spirit for clarification.

 

[Margot]

Except Margot just ridiculed an atheist. Look at Post #8.

Not at all! I reported what I saw! He flipped out which means I was on point

 

[IBDaMann]

Yep. There are very few of us non-Christians who haven't been informed that we are hell-bound if we don't accept their particular religious path, in real life.

... and no one should need it to be explained that all religions hold that failure to worship as dictated by a particular religion will result in suffering the consequences of non-belief of that particular religion. Furthermore, it should be obvious that all religions hold that the benefits of faith in/practicing a particular religion are only afforded to the believers of that particular religion. It pretty much goes without saying for all religions

“The price good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men.” -- Plato
"The price good men pay for indifference to the attempts by evil men to abolish the ability to thwart tyranny, and to defend oneself against violent crime, is to be ruled by those evil men" -- IBDaMann
"The price good men pay for indifference to evil men executing living humans who have not committed any crime, is to become declared 'not living humans' by those evil men when they assume power" -- IBDaMann

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Oh good Christ.

Why bother?

You said you were an atheist, Perry. Is that you lying again?

To see your reaction and observe your behavior.

 

[Margot]

Really. We were always told in Sunday School and church that your sins will be forgiven if you ask Jesus and sincerely repent -- and don't keep repeating them, or bragging about them.

"We were always told" ! That's a problem! Get the middle man out,work directly with God,you'll get real results

 

[Margot]

A lot of that Islamophobia was whipped up by #TRE45ON and Reichwing media following his election in 2016. But he's not a racist nor a bigot, oh no, and neither are they.

Even at Amazon forums racist were all over Christian threads!

 

[Dutch Uncle]

 

[IBDaMann]

Auschwitz could only exist in Hell!

It existed on earth. Really, it did. Ask me how I know.

 

[IBDaMann]

A lot of that Islamophobia was whipped up by

There was no Islamophobia. The lie that there somehow was was mindlessly promulgated by dishonest leftists who have other people doing their thinking for them.

Just stay in your safe space and let those with intellectual fortitude run society.

 

[NiftyNiblick]

I
I actually like the idea in principle of Hitler, Stalin, and Timothy McVeigh burning in hell.

Eternity is a very long time, Cypress.

How is it possible for even Hitler,

responsible for the ignominious death of literally millions,

to earn ETERNAL damnation is a finite lifetime?

It would be difficult to justify that logically.

Even if his Excellency the Chancellor got a million years of misery
for every single person on whom he visited misery,
and he may have deserved that,
that's a dot relative to eternity.

As for Stalin, what's your beef with him?
He was one of your people to begin with,
and he was on OUR side.
The enemy of my enemy is my friend, no?

Anyway,
my belief is that we all get the perfect peace
that comes with the inevitable transition to non-existence
whether we deserve it or not.

The proverbial dead horse can't feel that you're beating it.
He no longer exists
and you're just beating inert matter.

 

[Cypress]

Agreed, Perry. Now the hard question: Who wrote that; man or God?

Samuel wrote it.

AFAIK, God does not speak directly at all in Samuel.
Samuel purports to be speaking on behalf of God.

 

[IBDaMann]

I'd suggest it borders on insane to think that something as complicated as the universe didn't have a creator if something as simple as slapping paint on a surface is done by a monkey.

Your perspective is noted.

I, on the other hand, suggest that it borders on insanity to look at something so obviously random as the dust cloud we call the observable universe and believe that it was somehow intelligently designed. You might as well say that the die roll results at your favorite craps table are intelligently planned. Warmizombies rely on this particular error when they claim that random weather somehow has "patterns."

But I stand by your fundamental right to believe whatever you wish to believe. You should nonetheless get Into the Night's insights and avoid being a closed-minded snowflake cowering in a collective safe space. Listen to differing ideas and apply your own analysis and critical reasoning. I'd love to hear what you have to say about what he has to say.

 

[Cypress]

Eternity is a very long time, Cypress.

How is it possible for even Hitler,

responsible for the ignominious death of literally millions,

to earn ETERNAL damnation is a finite lifetime?

It would be difficult to justify that logically.

Even if his Excellency the Chancellor got a million years of misery
for every single person on whom he visited misery,
and he may have deserved that,
that's a dot relative to eternity.

As for Stalin, what's your beef with him?
He was one of your people to begin with,
and he was on OUR side.
The enemy of my enemy is my friend, no?

Anyway,
my belief is that we all get the perfect peace
that comes with the inevitable transition to non-existence
whether we deserve it or not.

The proverbial dead horse can't feel that you're beating it.
He no longer exists
and you're just beating inert matter.

The Red Army was basically responsible for vanquishing Hitler, and good on them.

Stalin was one of history's greatest criminals against humanity.

My aunt's husband, my great uncle, and numerous more distant relatives were arrested and sent to the Gulag Archipelago to satisfy Stalin's need for slave labor and his need to terrorize the population.

All thoroughly documented by Solzhenitsyn.


As for time, we have extremely limited concepts of time. To a photon, the history of the universe unfolded and happened all at the same time, instantaneously.

 

[Stone]

Eternity is a very long time, Cypress.

How is it possible for even Hitler,

responsible for the ignominious death of literally millions,

to earn ETERNAL damnation is a finite lifetime?

It would be difficult to justify that logically.

Even if his Excellency the Chancellor got a million years of misery
for every single person on whom he visited misery,
and he may have deserved that,
that's a dot relative to eternity.

As for Stalin, what's your beef with him?
He was one of your people to begin with,
and he was on OUR side.
The enemy of my enemy is my friend, no?

Anyway,
my belief is that we all get the perfect peace
that comes with the inevitable transition to non-existence
whether we deserve it or not.

The proverbial dead horse can't feel that you're beating it.
He no longer exists
and you're just beating inert matter.

WHAT???? Whats ANYONES beef with Stalin? Well besides murdering 40 million of his own people and being a complete tyrant....