Museum of Atheism

Mr.Mason said:
I'm pretty sure,I told you countless times I deal with the Holy Spirit, not with any organized religion
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You avoided answering the question. Why? Are you embarrassed or deceitful?

God is all powerful and all knowing. If God talked to you then how is that wrong?
 
Jack said:
Cy: "The anonymous message board poster Jack did not outperform these gentlemen, by magically being gifted a coherent and comprehensive moral code all on his own."
Jack: Jack thought about 'Life'. And made a personal decision that Epicurus had the correct position. And that Jesus had the WRONG position.

Cy: "World religions were humanity's institutions for refining, clarifying, and systemizing an organized, coherent, consistent ethical vision."
Jack; 'Religions' involved the occult. Each had a Magic Storyline that would be used to 'authenticate' whatever 'philosophy' they were pushing. Morality/Ethics should stand on it's own merits without the use of 'Gods' as a reinforcement tool.

Cy: "A moral awareness and coherent ethical vision did not blossom independently within you, and it was not imbued in you from interactions with science, technology, or atheism. "
Jack; Yes. Actually it did.

Cy: "Particularly the moral tenets of the New Testament."
Jack: Yes. The War Lords (Kings of Europe) found this Slave Religion would subdue the masses into submissive creatures, ripe for exploitation. For a thousand years this Belief System was successfully used to lull the populace into obedience.

I have no problem with YOU thinking the BIG PAYOFF is going to be in the next Life.
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You have studiously avoided directly saying from where you plausibly acquired your moral awareness growing up.

We know you didn't get It from Darwin, Einstein, Newton.

You didn't get it from Epicurus, who you never heard of until middle age.

You didn't get it from atheism.

You did not get it from any scientific law or mathematical theorem.

You certainly were not one of history's great minds, and simply came up with a lucid moral clarity independently all on your own.

You never heard of the Code of Hammurabi until you were well into adulthood, so that can't be it.

And at any rate, the ethical bar does not get any lower simply saying you are going to refrain from murder, rape, and theft. That is a moral code which barely clears the floor.
 
Jack said:
I agree. No one needs to be taught cheating, lying, stealing is wrong. Most of us have figured out the Golden Rule.
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Incorrect. People are not preprogrammed with morale codes. They have to be socially indoctrinated to learn their groups social codes which is why the Spartans had different values than the Athenians or Americans different the Soviets.

There are some common sense rules that all human tribes share like "do not murder each other" but that's to prevent weakening the tribe to the point other tribes can attack and decimate them. It's still learned behavior, not innate behavior.
 
Hello Cypress,

Cypress said:
Think man, think!

I'm not talking about petty crime and criminal ordinances.
Rape, stealing, and muder are frowned upon by all societies.

I'm talking about the moral code you grew up with, either due to parents, or by osmosis in the 2,000 year old cultural and ethical mileu of western Civilian civilization.

Whether you practice it or not, deep down inside you admire virtues like humility, charity, forgiveness, modesty, universal love.

That is exactly why you have the grudging admiration for the moral principles of a Franciscan monk, in a way you do not for the moral principles of Donald Trump.

It is because the moral philosophy of the New Testament is hard to argue with on balance, no matter what you think of Christianity.

And where did you get that latent, metaphysical moral awareness?

You did not invent it yourself.
You did not get it from ancient Sparta.
You did not get it from Epicurus.
You did not get it from Buddha.
You did not get it from Newton, Darwin, or Einstein.
You did not get it from any scientific laws or mathematical theorems.
You did not get it from atheism.

You got it from growing up in a Western civilization with an ethical mileu which has spent two thousand years germinating in New Testament tradition.
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When there are so many religious people who seem to have missed that moral code, it is a failed argument to claim that any morality found in atheists comes from religion. Religion does a poor job of instituting morals in people. Atheists are able to achieve higher morality than many religious people. It follows that morality comes from some place else.

Morality is logical for people living in a society.

A society which condones immorality is in peril.

A society which reveres morality is more successful and secure.

Therefore, logically, members of a society should be considerate of one another.

Morals need have nothing to do with religion. Morality simply makes sense.
 
Cypress said:
You have studiously avoided directly saying from where you plausibly acquired your moral awareness growing up.

We know you didn't get It from Darwin, Einstein, Newton.

You didn't get it from Epicurus, who you never heard of until middle age.

You didn't get it from atheism.

You did not get it from any scientific law or mathematical theorem.

You certainly were not one of history's great minds, and simply came up with a lucid moral clarity independently all on your own.

You never heard of the Code of Hammurabi until you were well into adulthood, so that can't be it.

And at any rate, the ethical bar does not get any lower simply saying you are going to refrain from murder, rape, and theft. That is a moral code which barely clears the floor.
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I wasn't brought up in a 'Religious' household. So your bogus argument that everything in the New Testament has influenced everyone's life in incorrect. America was founded on a Separation of Church and State. The Laws of America stem from English Law, hence Roman Law.
You sound like some Islamist preaching about how the Prophet Mohammad brought 'Ethics and Morality' to the Arab World.

The Main Flaw in your Argument is how you attempt (unsuccessfully) to part the Occult from the Philosophy of your Religious Belief.
Both the Occult (Jesus is a Man-God), and the Philosophy (Universal Love) is a sham.

If Russia invades Ukraine, if China takes Taiwan, if North Korea bombs Hawaii, if Iran bombs Israel, YOUR philosophy is to turn the other cheek. YOUR philosophy is to DO NOTHING and let OTHERS take the initiative. You have some kind of reluctance to face the real world and are hoping a Big Daddy somewhere is looking out for you.
 
A completely amoral society is destined to self-destruct.

There must be coordination for mutual benefit in order for a society to exist.

Therefore, society generates morality.

Religion is not required.
 
PoliTalker said:
Hello Cypress,



When there are so many religious people who seem to have missed that moral code, it is a failed argument to claim that any morality found in atheists comes from religion. Religion does a poor job of instituting morals in people. Atheists are able to achieve higher morality than many religious people. It follows that morality comes from some place else.

Morality is logical for people living in a society.

A society which condones immorality is in peril.

A society which reveres morality is more successful and secure.

Therefore, logically, members of a society should be considerate of one another.

Morals need have nothing to do with religion. Morality simply makes sense.
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Lucid moral clarity does not spring forth from nowhere.

That is why history is peppered with great moral thinkers, Plato, Augustine, Sidartha Guatauma, Zarathustra.

For 2,500 years of history - at least since the axial age - humanity's deepest moral awareness has for the most part bbeen forged in the institutions of world religions.

That is why even the most skeptical atheist can genuinely look at the Buddhist eightfold path, the ethical tenets of the New Testament, the lessons of the Bagavad Gita with some measure of admiration.

Whether or not one accepts spirituality, the metaphysical ethical vision in those ancient texts, for the most part, have stood the test of time. I know few people who would rage against the lessons of compassion, mercy, charity duty, humility, modesty found in those texts.


While Jack has had a lot of fun (rightly) mocking the superstitious parts of the bible, he lost view of something of profound importance: Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism are lived religions. Those religions are, first and foremost, about putting those lucid moral visions into practice in this life. Whether or not the afterlife is a superstition is an argument for another day.

Whether or not individual Jews, Muslims Buddhists, Christians actually put into practice the moral tenets of their faith is a matter of choice. JPP leads me to believe most self-proffessed christians don't.
 
Cypress said:
Lucid moral clarity does not spring forth from nowhere.

That is why history is peppered with great moral thinkers, Plato, Augustine, Sidartha Guatauma, Zarathustra.

For 2,500 years of history - at least since the axial age - humanity's deepest moral awareness has for the most part bbeen forged in the institutions of world religions.

That is why even the most skeptical atheist can genuinely look at the Buddhist eightfold path, the ethical tenets of the New Testament, the lessons of the Bagavad Gita with some measure of admiration.

Whether or not one accepts spirituality, the metaphysical ethical vision in those ancient texts, for the most part, have stood the test of time. I know few people who would rage against the lessons of compassion, mercy, charity duty, humility, modesty found in those texts.


While Jack has had a lot of fun (rightly) mocking the superstitious parts of the bible, he lost view of something of profound importance: Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism are lived religions. Those religions are, first and foremost, putting those lucid moral visions into practice in this life. Whether or not the afterlife is a superstition is an argument for another day.

Whether or not individual Jews, Muslims Buddhists, Christians actually put into practice the moral tenets of their faith is a matter of choice. JPP leads me to believe most self-proffessed christians don't.
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You attempt to mix 'Morality' with 'Religion'. You attempt to mix Philosophers of the Past with 'Religion'. You seem unable (or more likely, deliberately) to separate any morality from some kind of 'religion'. This is your attempt to justify your religious beliefs as the bedrock reason for 'morality'.
 
PoliTalker said:
A completely amoral society is destined to self-destruct.

There must be coordination for mutual benefit in order for a society to exist.

Therefore, society generates morality.

Religion is not required.
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Do you have any examples proving amoral societies always self-destruct? Didn't the Soviets scream for years about the decadent West? That homosexuality is amoral?

There is no universal set of moral codes. There is physics and math. There is the reality of human limitations. There is the practicality that it takes 15 years to raise a human to do work defending the village or working to feed it. Therefore it makes sense to protect children. A tribe that doesn't is doomed to die. Physics. Biology. No universal code of morality.

Is there any doubt that "morality" changes with conditions? Feminists Florence Kennedy and Gloria Steinem popularized the statement "If men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament". If true, then doesn't that prove morality is situational?
 
Cypress said:
Utter horseshit.

History's greatest minds have struggled with the question of how to cultivate ethics, morality, and virtue in attempting to give meaning to life.

These include Plato, Sidartha Guatauma, Augustine, Confucius, Zhu Xi, Aristotle, Zarathustra.

The anonymous message board poster Jack did not outperform these gentlemen, by magically being gifted a coherent and comprehensive moral code all on his own.

World religions were humanity's institutions for refining, clarifying, and systemizing an organized, coherent, consistent ethical vision.

A moral awareness and coherent ethical vision did not blossom independently within you, and it was not imbued in you from interactions with science, technology, or atheism.

I take no backseats to the criticism of religion, and I have the posts to prove it.
But I also have an abiding respect for historical truth and intellectual integrity. Any reputable scholar of history is going to tell you that the cultural and ethical influence of Christianity on western civilization has been vast. Particularly the moral tenets of the New Testament.

It has been so pervasive for so many thousands of years, you have been obliquely influenced by it, if only by osmosis, that you barely even realize you have been influenced by it.

Now if you were born in East Asia, your internal moral awareness would almost certainly be directly or indirectly influenced by Buddhism, Jainism, or Neo-confucianism; aka other religious traditions.

But you weren't born there. You were born in the west, and whatever internal moral awareness you have - regardless of whether you act on it - has been obliquely influenced by the pervasive influence of New Testament ethical tenets which have been percolating for two thousand years in western civilization.
.
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You claiming you didn't know some right and wrong naturally before you could read?
 
Jack said:
You attempt to mix 'Morality' with 'Religion'. You attempt to mix Philosophers of the Past with 'Religion'. You seem unable (or more likely, deliberately) to separate any morality from some kind of 'religion'. This is your attempt to justify your religious beliefs as the bedrock reason for 'morality'.
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Religions are just a form of social philosophy. They also serve to fulfill people's spiritual needs. Dogmatic religions are dying because people are outgrowing them. Therefore the dogmatic religions need to adapt themselves....which many are doing.
 
Mr.Mason said:
You claiming you didn't know some right and wrong naturally before you could read?
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Right and wrong are taught by parents. A two year old is taught "dookie is dirty" and has to be toilet trained. The natural response is for the two year old to just shit itself daily.
 
Jack said:
You attempt to mix 'Morality' with 'Religion'. You attempt to mix Philosophers of the Past with 'Religion'. You seem unable (or more likely, deliberately) to separate any morality from some kind of 'religion'. This is your attempt to justify your religious beliefs as the bedrock reason for 'morality'.
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I agree I had zero religious beliefs or knowledge, but always tried to do what I perceived as right and wrong.
 
Dutch Uncle said:
Right and wrong are taught by parents. A two year old is taught "dookie is dirty" and has to be toilet trained. The natural response is for the two year old to just shit itself daily.
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Your parents had to teach you everything that was right or wrong,you didn't figure any of it out yourself?
 
Mr.Mason said:
Define "God" not everyones God is one and the same.
Be specific.
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Your God. Obviously you don't want to answer. My guess is that you are paranoid about being both ridiculed and labeled crazy (schizo) for hearing voice.

If you truly believe God spoke to you, you'd be clear about it despite all condemnation or accusations. You don't. You're evasive and deceitful about it. Your choice.
 
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