Museum of Atheism

[Jack]

To me it is not a legitimate criticism to complain that 8th century Christian leaders were not fierce advocates for first amendment rights. That is trying to anachronistically project modern western political theory back to the early Middle Ages

I am sure when Church officials ran across Gnostic or Nestorian scrolls they tried to suppress them or destroy them.

But censorship was basically a universal practice until the 19th century, by both secular and religious authorities. The French King did not like what Voltaire was writing, and the Russian Tsar sent Dostoyevsky to prison camp for expressing ideas the tsar did not like. Solzhenitsyn was suppressed for years.
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CY: "Censorship was basically a universal practice until the 19th century, by both secular and religious authorities. The French King did not like what Voltaire was writing, and the Russian Tsar sent Dostoyevsky to prison camp for expressing ideas the tsar did not like."
Jack; See. This is what you would like to believe. The Schools of Greek Thought didn't 'burn' each others books because they disagreed. There was Open Discussion, and Competition of Ideas.

 

[Iolo/Penderyn]

To me it is not a legitimate criticism to complain that 8th century Christian leaders were not fierce advocates for first amendment rights. That is trying to anachronistically project modern western political theory back to the early Middle Ages

I am sure when Church officials ran across Gnostic or Nestorian scrolls they tried to suppress them or destroy them.

But censorship was basically a universal practice until the 19th century, by both secular and religious authorities. The French King did not like what Voltaire was writing, and the Russian Tsar sent Dostoyevsky to prison camp for expressing ideas the tsar did not like. Solzhenitsyn was suppressed for years.
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The late Western Empire (indeed the Empire throughout) was hardly a time of liberty, nor, really, was any time in the Classical world (ask Athenian slaves or Athenian women about democracy). The late Empire in Britain was a sick society: British claimants tried frequently to take it over, and in 410 we finally kicked it out as pointlessly costly and useless. We're used to classical propaganda from the imperialist states, England, Portugal, Spain, the Netherlands and France, in favour of Rome, but it's all codswallop. Thank God we got shot of a slave-based economy and started to develop a democratic world!

 

[Cypress]

Cy: "I accept your tacit admission you cannot explain why the classics of Greek and Roman literature, poetry, and drama survived past antiquity if the Christians were burning "all" the books."
Jack: We've already discussed how the Muslims of Spain reintroduced Europe to the books of Antiquity.

Incorrect.

The Muslims did not give a rat's ass about Greek drama and poetry. Or Beowulf for that matter. Or the Norse literature.

They liked Euclid and Aristotle. Because math and logic were something they could use.

Here is another nugget of information you should tuck away. Literature and literacy was never lost in the Christian Eastern Roman empire. Greek literature, drama, poetry were maintained in the Orthodox Christian Byzantine Empire, and much of that literature found it's way back to Italy in the High and late Middle Ages.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

'Religion' isn't science, and it isn't inquisitive. It's dogmatic. I find it odd that Cypress continues to try and promote this autocratic institution as some sort of 'benefit' to mankind. Cypress does seem 'inquisitive', OPPOSITE to religious belief.
My only conclusion is that he was brainwashed as a child.

You mix fact and opinion, Jack. Presumably in an effort to spread your hate of Christians and women. Yes, religion isn't a science, but some religious people are scientists. Example: Gregor Mendel

While religion tends to be dogmatic, it's not always so since even Christians try to understand the true meaning of Bible scripture. Sometimes it's pretty vague.

Your opinion of Cypress is wrong since I don't see him as promoting as much as noting. Your bipolarism is showing and I hope you haven't forgotten what I said before about the cliff because I still mean it. You need help and if seeing you banned is the best help anyone on JPP can give you, then so be it.

Your conclusion about brainwashing is wrong since brainwashing only works in a closed environment. The mind begins to reassert itself once removed from the controlled environment.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

The late Western Empire (indeed the Empire throughout) was hardly a time of liberty, nor, really, was any time in the Classical world (ask Athenian slaves or Athenian women about democracy). The late Empire in Britain was a sick society: British claimants tried frequently to take it over, and in 410 we finally kicked it out as pointlessly costly and useless. We're used to classical propaganda from the imperialist states, England, Portugal, Spain, the Netherlands and France, in favour of Rome, but it's all codswallop. Thank God we got shot of a slave-based economy and started to develop a democratic world!

Human beings are assholes. Name a single culture what was full of liberty and charity for all. You can't because they don't exist in a world of barbarians.

 

[Jack]

Incorrect.

The Muslims did not give a rat's ass about Greek drama and poetry. Or Beowulf for that matter. Or the Norse literature.

They liked Euclid and Aristotle. Because math and logic were something they could use.

Here is another nugget of information you should tuck away. Literature and literacy was never lost in the Christian Eastern Roman empire. Greek literature, drama, poetry were maintained in the Orthodox Christian Byzantine Empire, and much of that literature found it's way back to Italy in the High and late Middle Ages.

Yeah. I'm sure the Church only destroyed books that they felt didn't promote their Storyline. Which is the point.

 

[Cypress]

CY: "Censorship was basically a universal practice until the 19th century, by both secular and religious authorities. The French King did not like what Voltaire was writing, and the Russian Tsar sent Dostoyevsky to prison camp for expressing ideas the tsar did not like."
Jack; See. This is what you would like to believe. The Schools of Greek Thought didn't 'burn' each others books because they disagreed. There was Open Discussion, and Competition of Ideas.

Obviously, you would prefer that 100 percent of my posts to be caustically critical of Christianity. Like you do.

I cannot do that because it is intellectually dishonest.

Maybe about 50 percent of my posts are going to be critical of Christianity. Explain to me what percentage of critical posts I have to write to meet your standards.


Some examples where I criticize religion right on this thread:

One good thing about Soviet atheism is it made divorce available to women, who previously had been trapped in abusive marriages by the patriarchy of the Orthodox religious tradition.

Because fundamentalists like the Taliban, the Saudi theocracy, and American conservative evangelicals desire to limit free thought, scholarly inquiry, civil rights, and scientific investigation.

(Religious conservatives) spent enormous resources and decades of effort to try to outlaw gay marriage and women's reproductive choice

It wasn't too many decades ago they tried to prevent white people and black people from getting married.

The leaders of the Orthodox Church conspired with the tsar and the aristocracy to keep 80 million Russians in a state of abject serfdom and illiteracy for centuries.

So it is just doesn't cut the mustard to reduce everything to a simple maxim that religion is good and atheism is bad.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Yeah. I'm sure the Church only destroyed books that they felt didn't promote their Storyline. Which is the point.

Just like Republicans?

Okay, yes some Christians destroyed books. So what? People can be assholes. Religion, like a gun, is a tool and cannot do anything without a human using that tool.

Add to that fact, anything can be weaponized, including religion. Why? Because people can be assholes. Pull your head out of your own ass, Jack, and smell the fresh air.

The alternative is that you will remain blinded by your own asshole and walk off that cliff again. Smarten up, Jack.

 

[Jack]

You mix fact and opinion, Jack. Presumably in an effort to spread your hate of Christians and women. Yes, religion isn't a science, but some religious people are scientists. Example: Gregor Mendel

While religion tends to be dogmatic, it's not always so since even Christians try to understand the true meaning of Bible scripture. Sometimes it's pretty vague.

Your opinion of Cypress is wrong since I don't see him as promoting as much as noting. Your bipolarism is showing and I hope you haven't forgotten what I said before about the cliff because I still mean it. You need help and if seeing you banned is the best help anyone on JPP can give you, then so be it.

Your conclusion about brainwashing is wrong since brainwashing only works in a closed environment. The mind begins to reassert itself once removed from the controlled environment.

The fact remains. The 'Thousand Year track record of Christianity' produced ... a thousand years of Ignorance. That's like a thousand years of North Korea ending up in the same situation as it is in today, not much of an accomplishment.

Dutch: "While religion tends to be dogmatic, it's not always so since even Christians try to understand the true meaning of Bible scripture. Sometimes it's pretty vague. "
Jack: Here, let me help. It's a Slave Religion.

Dutch: "Your opinion of Cypress is wrong since I don't see him as promoting as much as noting."
Jack: Cypress seems intelligent. At times he goes into great lengths about the virtues of religion, waxing eloquently about Mercy, Compassion, etc. ... as the fact of an enslaved Europe stands*as a Testament to the effects of a Christian Propaganda Agenda that dwarfs Fox News.

Dutch: "Your conclusion about brainwashing is wrong"
Jack; My only option is that an intelligent person like Cypress has gone to a Christian Madrassa School as a child.

 

[Jack]

Just like Republicans?

Okay, yes some Christians destroyed books. So what? People can be assholes. Religion, like a gun, is a tool and cannot do anything without a human using that tool.

Add to that fact, anything can be weaponized, including religion. Why? Because people can be assholes. Pull your head out of your own ass, Jack, and smell the fresh air.

The alternative is that you will remain blinded by your own asshole and walk off that cliff again. Smarten up, Jack.

^This is your usual jibberish. And the reason I usually ignore you.

 

[Jack]

Obviously, you would prefer that 100 percent of my posts to be caustically critical of Christianity. Like you do.

I cannot do that because it is intellectually dishonest.

Maybe about 50 percent of my posts are going to be critical of Christianity. Explain to me what percentage of critical posts I have to write to meet your standards.


Some examples where I criticize religion right on this thread:

I support your postings, whatever they are.
If you attempt to glorify 'Religions', I'd like to know your reasoning. Any problem with that?

 

[Cypress]

Incorrect.

The Muslims did not give a rat's ass about Greek drama and poetry. Or Beowulf for that matter. Or the Norse literature.

They liked Euclid and Aristotle. Because math and logic were something they could use.

Here is another nugget of information you should tuck away. Literature and literacy was never lost in the Christian Eastern Roman empire. Greek literature, drama, poetry were maintained in the Orthodox Christian Byzantine Empire, and much of that literature found it's way back to Italy in the High and late Middle Ages.

What is important about the Muslims is their philosophical commentaries on Aristotle, et al. Western Christian scholars really appreciated the commentaries on Aristotle by the Muslim scholar Averroes in Spain, because on the strength of his commentaries, the western philosophical tradition was built up again.

As to where the writings of Aristotle and the Greco-Roman thinkers were maintained and preserved that was in the Christian Eastern Roman Empire, later known as the Byzantine Empire, which outlasted the western Roman Empire by a thousand years.

So the Muslims got their copies of Aristotle from the Orthodox Christian Byzantine Empire, where literacy never atrophied the way it did when the barbarian tribes over ran the west

 

[Dutch Uncle]

The fact remains. The 'Thousand Year track record of Christianity' produced ... a thousand years of Ignorance. That's like a thousand years of North Korea ending up in the same situation as it is in today, not much of an accomplishment.

Dutch: "While religion tends to be dogmatic, it's not always so since even Christians try to understand the true meaning of Bible scripture. Sometimes it's pretty vague. "
Jack: Here, let me help. It's a Slave Religion.

Dutch: "Your opinion of Cypress is wrong since I don't see him as promoting as much as noting."
Jack: Cypress seems intelligent. At times he goes into great lengths about the virtues of religion, waxing eloquently about Mercy, Compassion, etc. ... as the fact of an enslaved Europe stands*as a Testament to the effects of a Christian Propaganda Agenda that dwarfs Fox News.

Dutch: "Your conclusion about brainwashing is wrong"
Jack; My only option is that an intelligent person like Cypress has gone to a Christian Madrassa School as a child.

Your opinion is wrong if for Gregor Mendel alone much less all the people listed here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christians_in_science_and_technology

Your refusal to state why you hate Christianity so much is your choice. My choice to focus on taking advantage of your illness to help you "see the light"...off a ban cliff. LOL

 

[Dutch Uncle]

^This is your usual jibberish. And the reason I usually ignore you.

Translation: You're right, Dutch. I'm a sick puppy and I'm afraid of you.

You should be, Jack. The fact remains your mental illness is your problem, not others. You see your mental illness as a tool to be used, but the reality is that you are like a kid playing with matches in a pool of gasoline. You'll only end up hurting yourself.

 

[Cypress]

The late Western Empire (indeed the Empire throughout) was hardly a time of liberty, nor, really, was any time in the Classical world (ask Athenian slaves or Athenian women about democracy). The late Empire in Britain was a sick society: British claimants tried frequently to take it over, and in 410 we finally kicked it out as pointlessly costly and useless. We're used to classical propaganda from the imperialist states, England, Portugal, Spain, the Netherlands and France, in favour of Rome, but it's all codswallop. Thank God we got shot of a slave-based economy and started to develop a democratic world!

I am sure I never suggested the Middle Ages were a time of liberty.

Plato and Aristotle hated democracy.

But western civilization would not be the same without them.

I just don't think western civilization took Root in the year 1800.

I think western capitalism, culture, art, literature, philosophy germinated within a two thousand year tradition which included vestiges of Greece, Rome, Judeo-Christianity, even some pagan and Islamic elements.

 

[Wolverine]

'Religion' isn't science, and it isn't inquisitive. It's dogmatic. I find it odd that Cypress continues to try and promote this autocratic institution as some sort of 'benefit' to mankind. Cypress does seem 'inquisitive', OPPOSITE to religious belief.
My only conclusion is that he was brainwashed as a child.

Actually Science is the study of God's creation! You can deny and kick and scream all you want but you will bow the knee to Jesus! It doesn't matter if you beleive, don't believe, believe in flying spaghetti monsters, and fairies!

 

[Cypress]

I support your postings, whatever they are.
If you attempt to glorify 'Religions', I'd like to know your reasoning. Any problem with that?

So I am 100 percent certain you were not really aware of the significance and role of the Byzantine Empire in European history.

You still haven't told me what percentage of my posts are supposed to be hostile and caustic to Christianity.

On this thread alone, as well as many others, a significant percentage of my posts criticize religion, and obliterate bible thumpers with scientific facts.

Exactly what percentage of my posts have to be caustic to meet your standards?

 

[BidenPresident]

No you learned man's attempt to interject himself into what God actually did!

You're a spokesman for God.

 

[BidenPresident]

I want you to describe what evolution is, what did they teach you, can you even remember.

you seem very stupid

 

[Cypress]

The fact remains. The 'Thousand Year track record of Christianity' produced ... a thousand years of Ignorance. That's like a thousand years of North Korea ending up in the same situation as it is in today, not much of an accomplishment.

Dutch: "While religion tends to be dogmatic, it's not always so since even Christians try to understand the true meaning of Bible scripture. Sometimes it's pretty vague. "
Jack: Here, let me help. It's a Slave Religion.

Dutch: "Your opinion of Cypress is wrong since I don't see him as promoting as much as noting."
Jack: Cypress seems intelligent. At times he goes into great lengths about the virtues of religion, waxing eloquently about Mercy, Compassion, etc. ... as the fact of an enslaved Europe stands*as a Testament to the effects of a Christian Propaganda Agenda that dwarfs Fox News.

Dutch: "Your conclusion about brainwashing is wrong"
Jack; My only option is that an intelligent person like Cypress has gone to a Christian Madrassa School as a child.

Since your working knowledge of something as historically important as the Byzantine Empire is virtually non-existent, it seemed highly plausible that you lack a sophisticated knowledge of the history of Christianity.

That's what happens when you practice confirmation bias, and only Google for articles which already support your preconceived notions.