New photos show ‘haphazard manner’ in which Trump allegedly stored classified documents: prosecutors

Truth Detector said:
Really? Did Jack Smith tell you that? Yet the FBI had inspected the facility the previous month and made some minor recommendations.

Apparently, you like being gaslighted, lied to and gulp down a lot of DNC koolaid. :palm:
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No, I've never spoken to Jack Smith. I've seen pictures of the documents. The FBI made recommendations to secure the documents, not so Trump could keep them, but to secure them until they got them (or took them) back.
 
Lionfish said:
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You might as well call the FBI the SS.
 
Truth Detector said:
Really? What part?

Presidential Records Act (PRA) of 1978​

The Presidential Records Act (PRA) of 1978, 44 U.S.C. ß2201-2209, governs the official records of Presidents and Vice Presidents that were created or received after January 20, 1981 (i.e., beginning with the Reagan Administration). The PRA changed the legal ownership of the official records of the President from private to public, and established a new statutory structure under which Presidents, and subsequently NARA, must manage the records of their Administrations. The PRA was amended in 2014, which established several new provisions.

Specifically, the PRA:

  • Establishes public ownership of all Presidential records and defines the term Presidential records.
  • Requires that Vice-Presidential records be treated in the same way as Presidential records.
  • Places the responsibility for the custody and management of incumbent Presidential records with the President.
  • Requires that the President and his staff take all practical steps to file personal records separately from Presidential records.
  • Allows the incumbent President to dispose of records that no longer have administrative, historical, informational, or evidentiary value, once the views of the Archivist of the United States on the proposed disposal have been obtained in writing.
  • Establishes in law that any incumbent Presidential records (whether textual or electronic) held on courtesy storage by the Archivist remain in the exclusive legal custody of the President and that any request or order for access to such records must be made to the President, not NARA.
  • Establishes that Presidential records automatically transfer into the legal custody of the Archivist as soon as the President leaves office.
  • Establishes a process by which the President may restrict and the public may obtain access to these records after the President leaves office; specifically, the PRA allows for public access to Presidential records through the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) beginning five years after the end of the Administration, but allows the President to invoke as many as six specific restrictions to public access for up to twelve years.
  • Codifies the process by which former and incumbent Presidents conduct reviews for executive privilege prior to public release of records by NARA (which had formerly been governed by Executive order 13489).
  • Establishes procedures for Congress, courts, and subsequent Administrations to obtain “special access” to records from NARA that remain closed to the public, following a privilege review period by the former and incumbent Presidents; the procedures governing such special access requests continue to be governed by the relevant provisions of E.O. 13489.
  • Establishes preservation requirements for official business conducted using non-official electronic messaging accounts: any individual creating Presidential records must not use non-official electronic messaging accounts unless that individual copies an official account as the message is created or forwards a complete copy of the record to an official messaging account. (A similar provision in the Federal Records Act applies to federal agencies.)
  • Prevents an individual who has been convicted of a crime related to the review, retention, removal, or destruction of records from being given access to any original records.
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Exactly. This law stems from the President's constitutional authority as Chief Executive and Chief Commander. The President is authorized to retain ANY DOCUMENT he wishes. He doesn't even need to declassify them! He can on a whim, of course, but he doesn't need to.
 
ZenMode said:
So, the FBI was at Mar-a-Lago specifically to retrieve the classified docs that didn't belong there, that the National Archives had been trying to get back for over a year. How would they go about that without removing them from the boxes?
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They DID belong there. The National Archives MOVED THEM THERE.
 
ZenMode said:
No, I've never spoken to Jack Smith. I've seen pictures of the documents. The FBI made recommendations to secure the documents, not so Trump could keep them, but to secure them until they got them (or took them) back.
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You saw nothing but staged photos by the SS/FBI.
 
Truth Detector said:
Really? What part?

Presidential Records Act (PRA) of 1978​

The Presidential Records Act (PRA) of 1978, 44 U.S.C. ß2201-2209, governs the official records of Presidents and Vice Presidents that were created or received after January 20, 1981 (i.e., beginning with the Reagan Administration). The PRA changed the legal ownership of the official records of the President from private to public, and established a new statutory structure under which Presidents, and subsequently NARA, must manage the records of their Administrations. The PRA was amended in 2014, which established several new provisions.

Specifically, the PRA:

  • Establishes public ownership of all Presidential records and defines the term Presidential records.
  • Requires that Vice-Presidential records be treated in the same way as Presidential records.
  • Places the responsibility for the custody and management of incumbent Presidential records with the President.
  • Requires that the President and his staff take all practical steps to file personal records separately from Presidential records.
  • Allows the incumbent President to dispose of records that no longer have administrative, historical, informational, or evidentiary value, once the views of the Archivist of the United States on the proposed disposal have been obtained in writing.
  • Establishes in law that any incumbent Presidential records (whether textual or electronic) held on courtesy storage by the Archivist remain in the exclusive legal custody of the President and that any request or order for access to such records must be made to the President, not NARA.
  • Establishes that Presidential records automatically transfer into the legal custody of the Archivist as soon as the President leaves office.
  • Establishes a process by which the President may restrict and the public may obtain access to these records after the President leaves office; specifically, the PRA allows for public access to Presidential records through the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) beginning five years after the end of the Administration, but allows the President to invoke as many as six specific restrictions to public access for up to twelve years.
  • Codifies the process by which former and incumbent Presidents conduct reviews for executive privilege prior to public release of records by NARA (which had formerly been governed by Executive order 13489).
  • Establishes procedures for Congress, courts, and subsequent Administrations to obtain “special access” to records from NARA that remain closed to the public, following a privilege review period by the former and incumbent Presidents; the procedures governing such special access requests continue to be governed by the relevant provisions of E.O. 13489.
  • Establishes preservation requirements for official business conducted using non-official electronic messaging accounts: any individual creating Presidential records must not use non-official electronic messaging accounts unless that individual copies an official account as the message is created or forwards a complete copy of the record to an official messaging account. (A similar provision in the Federal Records Act applies to federal agencies.)
  • Prevents an individual who has been convicted of a crime related to the review, retention, removal, or destruction of records from being given access to any original records.
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"Incumbent President " means current president . That just means that the President, as long as he's president, is responsible for maintaining his documents. The PRA requires two things: a) the president identify all "personal" documents (defined as journal/diary type of docs) BEFORE leaving office and b) turns over all other documents to the PRA.
 
Into the Night said:
You saw nothing but staged photos by the SS/FBI.
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Correct. The FBI removed docs from the boxes they were in, covered them with a paper identifying them as confidential (because it would be a major issue to photograph and share the content of the confidential docs) and photographed them.

And?
 
ZenMode said:
"Incumbent President " means current president . That just means that the President, as long as he's president, is responsible for maintaining his documents. The PRA requires two things: a) the president identify all "personal" documents (defined as journal/diary type of docs) BEFORE leaving office and b) turns over all other documents to the PRA.
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The PRA is not an organization, Void. The President has all the authority he needs to retain any document upon leaving office.
 
ZenMode said:
Correct. The FBI removed docs from the boxes they were in, covered them with a paper identifying them as confidential (because it would be a major issue to photograph and share the content of the confidential docs) and photographed them.

And?
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You never saw any documents, Void. Neither is the FBI authorized to view any document.
 
ZenMode said:
So, the FBI was at Mar-a-Lago specifically to retrieve the classified docs that didn't belong there,
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How were they not supposed to be there? Be specific.

ZenMode said:
that the National Archives had been trying to get back for over a year.
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The National archives is not the "decider" of what is personal and what is public. The PRA is clear on this. Did you not read it? I posted it so that you could be better informed.

Did the National archives send in the swat teams over Bidens documents he held for decades?

Did the National archives send in the swat teams over Mike Pence's illegal retention of classified documents?

Did the National archives send in the swat teams over Bill Clinton's retention of classified documents?

Trying to defend the indefensible makes you look clueless and stupid. This was an unprecedented and unconstitutional effort by the most despotic, repugnant administration in the Nation's history.

ZenMode said:
How would they go about that without removing them from the boxes?
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Why would they need to stage them and move the contents haphazardly while at his highly secured home?

Why would a sitting President send in swat teams to secure documents when that sitting President had retained similar documents illegally for decades? And then, not even be held to account for it?
 
ZenMode said:
There were boxes of docs in multiple locations around Mar-a-Lago that weren't behind locked doors.. Why wouldn't his cleaning staff have access to them? Do you think Trump and Melania clean the bathrooms themselves?
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This is a lie. The FBI had already inspected the premise and merely recommended an additional lock. What with all the lying and desperate flailing? Is that you Jack Smith?
 
Into the Night said:
Then why did you claim it was?

Going to run away, eh?
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Yah, sorry. You're not going to distract from the topic with your word games. That's not going to work.

NARA didn't move the docs to Mar-a-Lago.

Your claim that "The President is authorized to retain ANY DOCUMENT he wishes. He doesn't even need to declassify them! He can on a whim, of course, but he doesn't need to." is wrong. (Here, I'm going to word this differently so you can't keep playing dumb) According to the PRA, the President is required to turn over any and all non-person (described as journal/diary) type of docs to the National Archives:

Presidential Records Act (PRA)
In 1978, Congress passed the Presidential Records Act (PRA), which states that any records created or received by the President as part of his constitutional, statutory, or ceremonial duties are the property of the United States government and will be managed by NARA at the end of the administration.

The Presidential Records Act (PRA) changed the legal status of Presidential and Vice Presidential materials. Under the PRA, the official records of the President and his staff are owned by the United States, not by the President.

The Archivist is required to take custody of these records when the President leaves office, and to maintain them in a Federal depository.

www.archives.gov

The Presidential Records Act

Enlarge Boxes of records and memorabilia await transport to Little Rock, AR, in January 2001 for eventual storage in the Clinton Presidential Library. (William J. Clinton Library) Under the Presidential Records Act (PRA), incumbent Presidents have exclusive responsibility for the custody and...
www.archives.gov www.archives.gov

How much time do outgoing Presidents have to go through their papers to determine what to retain as personal documents?

The Presidential Records Act (PRA) requires the President to separate personal documents from Presidential records before leaving office

.........................................................................

The PRA makes the legal status of Presidential records clear and unambiguous, providing that the United States reserves and retains “complete ownership, possession, and control of Presidential records.” 44 U.S.C. 2202. There is no history, practice, or provision in law for presidents to take official records with them when they leave office to sort through, such as for a two-year period as described in some reports. If a former President or Vice President finds Presidential records among personal materials, he or she is expected to contact NARA in a timely manner to secure the transfer of those Presidential records to NARA.

www.archives.gov

Frequently Asked Questions Concerning Presidential Records and the Presidential Records Act

Recent media reports have generated a large number of queries about Presidential records and the Presidential Records Act (PRA), 44 U.S.C. 2201-2209. The PRA requires that all records created by Presidents (and Vice-Presidents) be turned over to the National Archives and Records Administration...
www.archives.gov www.archives.gov
 
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