New photos show ‘haphazard manner’ in which Trump allegedly stored classified documents: prosecutors

[ZenMode]

How were they not supposed to be there? Be specific.



The National archives is not the "decider" of what is personal and what is public. The PRA is clear on this. Did you not read it? I posted it so that you could be better informed.

How are documents in the White House determined to be an official Presidential record or a personal record?

Actually it is:

The Presidential Records Act (PRA) defines what constitutes “Presidential records” and what are “personal records.” 44 U.S.C. 2201. Personal records include “diaries, journals, or other personal notes serving as the functional equivalent of a diary or journal which are not prepared or utilized for, or circulated or communicated in the course of, transacting Government business.”

The PRA also requires that all documentary materials “be categorized as Presidential records or personal records upon their creation or receipt and be filed separately.” 44 U.S.C. 2203(b). The President does not have discretion to categorize a Presidential record as a personal record.

Did the National archives send in the swat teams over Bidens documents he held for decades?

No. When the Trump situation was brought to light, Biden had his lawyers check his document for classified docs. When some were found, Biden's lawyers did the right thing, notified NARA and voluntarily turned them over.

Did the National archives send in the swat teams over Mike Pence's illegal retention of classified documents?

No, because, again, Pence did the right thing and immediately turned them over. Had Pence lied and fought NARA for over a year, they may have sent the FBI to retrieve them.

Did the National archives send in the swat teams over Bill Clinton's retention of classified documents?

I didn't know he had any but, again, if Bill fought, lied and hid classified docs for over a year, I'd hope the FBI would be sent to get them. We don't want classified docs floating around in garages, bathrooms, etc... right?

Trying to defend the indefensible makes you look clueless and stupid. This was an unprecedented and unconstitutional effort by the most despotic, repugnant administration in the Nation's history.

Trump made the choice to take classified documents. Trump made the choice to try to hide them, have his lawyers lie about turning them all over, etc. That's is the fault of Trump, not the FBI, NARA, Biden, etc.

Why would they need to stage them and move the contents haphazardly while at his highly secured home?

That's funny. When Trump stores classified docs in his bathroom, it's ok. When the FBI photographs a cover page that says "Classified" THAT is haphazardly.

Why would a sitting President send in swat teams to secure documents when that sitting President had retained similar documents illegally for decades? And then, not even be held to account for it?

The FBI was sent, again, because Trump was uncooperative and dishonest. NARA tried for a year and a half to get all the classified docs back. Trump had his lawyers lie and say that they WERE all given back, even though they weren't.

I'll also note that the FBI went to Mar-a-Lago when they knew Trump wouldn't be there. They didn't notify the media that they were doing it. It was Trump's lawyer that told us the FBI was raiding Mar-a-Lago.

 

[ZenMode]

This is a lie. The FBI had already inspected the premise and merely recommended an additional lock. What with all the lying and desperate flailing? Is that you Jack Smith?

Trump took the docs with him in January 2021. Yes, the FBI eventually visited Mar-a-Lago and recommended additional locks on doors, but there was a time between the time when Trump left the WH with the docs, the FBI visited and Trump's staff added the locks, where documents were accessible to many people who didn't have clearance. Anyone should see that as a problem, just as they should see docs in Biden's garage as a problem.

 

[Grokmaster]

Biden had docs from before he was ever even in the Executive Branch; how is he not prosecuted, again?

Oh yeah...senile.

 

[ZenMode]

Biden had docs from before he was ever even in the Executive Branch; how is he not prosecuted, again?

Oh yeah...senile.

They ALL should have been prosecuted: Trump, Biden, Pence..... the law says nothing about intent, but the DOJ opted not to prosecute Biden and Pence because they cooperated, didn't lie, didn't try to hide documents and voluntarily disclosed what they had.

 

[Into the Night]

Yah, sorry. You're not going to distract from the topic with your word games. That's not going to work.

LIF. Grow up.

NARA didn't move the docs to Mar-a-Lago.

Yes they did.

Your claim that "The President is authorized to retain ANY DOCUMENT he wishes. He doesn't even need to declassify them! He can on a whim, of course, but he doesn't need to." is wrong. (Here, I'm going to word this differently so you can't keep playing dumb) According to the PRA, the President is required to turn over any and all non-person (described as journal/diary) type of docs to the National Archives:

And he did. The National Archives then moved them to Mar-a-Lago.

Presidential Records Act (PRA)
In 1978, Congress passed the Presidential Records Act (PRA), which states that any records created or received by the President as part of his constitutional, statutory, or ceremonial duties are the property of the United States government and will be managed by NARA at the end of the administration.

Selective quoting to cancel the Constitution and the PRA act won't work,Void. Your word games won't work.

The Presidential Records Act (PRA) changed the legal status of Presidential and Vice Presidential materials. Under the PRA, the official records of the President and his staff are owned by the United States, not by the President.

The PRA is not the Constitution.

The Archivist is required to take custody of these records when the President leaves office, and to maintain them in a Federal depository.

The Presidential Records Act

Enlarge Boxes of records and memorabilia await transport to Little Rock, AR, in January 2001 for eventual storage in the Clinton Presidential Library. (William J. Clinton Library) Under the Presidential Records Act (PRA), incumbent Presidents have exclusive responsibility for the custody and...

www.archives.gov

How much time do outgoing Presidents have to go through their papers to determine what to retain as personal documents?

The Presidential Records Act (PRA) requires the President to separate personal documents from Presidential records before leaving office

Which he did. NARA then moved the records to Mar-a-Lago.

The PRA makes the legal status of Presidential records clear and unambiguous, providing that the United States reserves and retains “complete ownership, possession, and control of Presidential records.” 44 U.S.C. 2202.

The PRA is not the Constitution.

There is no history, practice, or provision in law for presidents to take official records with them when they leave office to sort through, such as for a two-year period as described in some reports. If a former President or Vice President finds Presidential records among personal materials, he or she is expected to contact NARA in a timely manner to secure the transfer of those Presidential records to NARA.

Frequently Asked Questions Concerning Presidential Records and the Presidential Records Act

Recent media reports have generated a large number of queries about Presidential records and the Presidential Records Act (PRA), 44 U.S.C. 2201-2209. The PRA requires that all records created by Presidents (and Vice-Presidents) be turned over to the National Archives and Records Administration...

www.archives.gov

There certainly is! Trump DID contact the NARA, which moved the records to Mar-a-Lago.

Stop playing word games.

 

[Into the Night]

Actually it is:

No, it is not.

The Presidential Records Act (PRA) defines what constitutes “Presidential records” and what are “personal records.” 44 U.S.C. 2201. Personal records include “diaries, journals, or other personal notes serving as the functional equivalent of a diary or journal which are not prepared or utilized for, or circulated or communicated in the course of, transacting Government business.”

The PRA defines no such thing. The President does.

The PRA also requires that all documentary materials “be categorized as Presidential records or personal records upon their creation or receipt and be filed separately.” 44 U.S.C. 2203(b). The President does not have discretion to categorize a Presidential record as a personal record.

Yes he does.

No. When the Trump situation was brought to light,

You mean manufactured.

Biden had his lawyers check his document for classified docs. When some were found, Biden's lawyers did the right thing, notified NARA and voluntarily turned them over.

Blatant lie. Biden was NEVER AUTHORIZED to have the documents in the first place! He had them for YEARS! The ONLY way he could've obtained them that way was to steal them.

No, because, again, Pence did the right thing and immediately turned them over. Had Pence lied and fought NARA for over a year, they may have sent the FBI to retrieve them.

Pence also had the right to retain any document he wishes relating to his VP duties.

I didn't know he had any but, again, if Bill fought, lied and hid classified docs for over a year,

He had them for YEARS.

I'd hope the FBI would be sent to get them.

The SS is biased in support of Democrats, Void.

We don't want classified docs floating around in garages, bathrooms, etc... right? Trump made the choice to take classified documents.

He has that authority.

Trump made the choice to try to hide them,

He didn't hide them.

have his lawyers lie about turning them all over, etc.

He doesn't have to turn them over.

That's is the fault of Trump, not the FBI, NARA, Biden, etc.

No fault (other than the SS (fbi) breaking the law again).

That's funny. When Trump stores classified docs in his bathroom, it's ok.

Trump can store them wherever he wants.

When the FBI photographs a cover page that says "Classified" THAT is haphazardly.

No, it's a lie.

The FBI was sent, again, because Trump was uncooperative and dishonest.

You are describing yourself again. You can't blame your problems on Trump or anybody else.

NARA tried for a year and a half to get all the classified docs back.

Blatant lie. NARA delivered the documents to Mar-a-Lago, as required by law.

Trump had his lawyers lie and say that they WERE all given back, even though they weren't.

Word stuffing. Trump never said any such thing and neither did his lawyers.

I'll also note that the FBI went to Mar-a-Lago when they knew Trump wouldn't be there. They didn't notify the media that they were doing it. It was Trump's lawyer that told us the FBI was raiding Mar-a-Lago.

An illegal act.

 

[Into the Night]

Trump took the docs with him in January 2021. Yes, the FBI eventually visited Mar-a-Lago and recommended additional locks on doors, but there was a time between the time when Trump left the WH with the docs, the FBI visited and Trump's staff added the locks, where documents were accessible to many people who didn't have clearance. Anyone should see that as a problem, just as they should see docs in Biden's garage as a problem.

You are making shit up again. Trump is authorized to retain any document he wishes.

 

[Into the Night]

They ALL should have been prosecuted: Trump, Biden, Pence..... the law says nothing about intent, but the DOJ opted not to prosecute Biden and Pence because they cooperated, didn't lie, didn't try to hide documents and voluntarily disclosed what they had.

Blatant lie. Biden had the documents illegal for YEARS. The only way he could've obtained them is to steal them. He had NO authorization to have those documents for ANY LENGTH OF TIME.

Further, he exposed those documents to agents traveling to Ukraine and China.

Further, Joe Biden was PAID by those governments.

That's espionage, dude. He was also accepting bribes from foreign governments for personal gain as an officer of the United States. That's treason, dude.

 

[ZenMode]

No, it is not.

The PRA defines no such thing. The President does.

Yes he does.

You mean manufactured.

Blatant lie. Biden was NEVER AUTHORIZED to have the documents in the first place! He had them for YEARS! The ONLY way he could've obtained them that way was to steal them.

Pence also had the right to retain any document he wishes relating to his VP duties.

He had them for YEARS.

The SS is biased in support of Democrats, Void.

He has that authority.

He didn't hide them.

He doesn't have to turn them over.

No fault (other than the SS (fbi) breaking the law again).

Trump can store them wherever he wants.

No, it's a lie.

You are describing yourself again. You can't blame your problems on Trump or anybody else.

Blatant lie. NARA delivered the documents to Mar-a-Lago, as required by law.

Word stuffing. Trump never said any such thing and neither did his lawyers.

An illegal act.

As usual, you live in your own, imaginary world. Enjoy your day, Alex.

 

[Truth Detector]

Actually it is:

The Presidential Records Act (PRA) defines what constitutes “Presidential records” and what are “personal records.” 44 U.S.C. 2201. Personal records include “diaries, journals, or other personal notes serving as the functional equivalent of a diary or journal which are not prepared or utilized for, or circulated or communicated in the course of, transacting Government business.”

The PRA also requires that all documentary materials “be categorized as Presidential records or personal records upon their creation or receipt and be filed separately.” 44 U.S.C. 2203(b). The President does not have discretion to categorize a Presidential record as a personal record.
No. When the Trump situation was brought to light, Biden had his lawyers check his document for classified docs. When some were found, Biden's lawyers did the right thing, notified NARA and voluntarily turned them over. No, because, again, Pence did the right thing and immediately turned them over. Had Pence lied and fought NARA for over a year, they may have sent the FBI to retrieve them.

I didn't know he had any but, again, if Bill fought, lied and hid classified docs for over a year, I'd hope the FBI would be sent to get them. We don't want classified docs floating around in garages, bathrooms, etc... right? Trump made the choice to take classified documents. Trump made the choice to try to hide them, have his lawyers lie about turning them all over, etc. That's is the fault of Trump, not the FBI, NARA, Biden, etc. That's funny. When Trump stores classified docs in his bathroom, it's ok. When the FBI photographs a cover page that says "Classified" THAT is haphazardly. The FBI was sent, again, because Trump was uncooperative and dishonest. NARA tried for a year and a half to get all the classified docs back. Trump had his lawyers lie and say that they WERE all given back, even though they weren't.

I'll also note that the FBI went to Mar-a-Lago when they knew Trump wouldn't be there. They didn't notify the media that they were doing it. It was Trump's lawyer that told us the FBI was raiding Mar-a-Lago.

So, Biden should be impeached and jailed for violating these laws?

How about Mike Pence? Should we prosecute and jail him for his much worse violations like Biden?

The point (.) ==============> You.

 

[Truth Detector]

Trump took the docs with him in January 2021. Yes, the FBI eventually visited Mar-a-Lago and recommended additional locks on doors, but there was a time between the time when Trump left the WH with the docs, the FBI visited and Trump's staff added the locks, where documents were accessible to many people who didn't have clearance. Anyone should see that as a problem, just as they should see docs in Biden's garage as a problem.

So, there is a specific timeline that says one must comply with NRA demands? Citation needed please.

 

[Truth Detector]

They ALL should have been prosecuted: Trump, Biden, Pence..... the law says nothing about intent, but the DOJ opted not to prosecute Biden and Pence because they cooperated, didn't lie, didn't try to hide documents and voluntarily disclosed what they had.

Yeah, okay so it is only Trump being prosecuted. You're okay with that?

 

[ZenMode]

So, Biden should be impeached and jailed for violating these laws?

How about Mike Pence? Should we prosecute and jail him for his much worse violations like Biden?

The point (.) ==============> You.

Again, they should all be prosecuted for mishandling confidential documents. Hillary should have been prosecuted, also.

 

[ZenMode]

So, there is a specific timeline that says one must comply with NRA demands? Citation needed please.

Again, ALL documents, except for his truly personal documents, are required to be turned over to the NARA before he left office. The NARA gave him plenty of time to do the right thing. He chose not to, so the Federal Government went and got them.

 

[Truth Detector]

Again, they should all be prosecuted for mishandling confidential documents. Hillary should have been prosecuted, also.

So, if none of them are, BUT Trump is, what is that called?

 

[ZenMode]

Yeah, okay so it is only Trump being prosecuted. You're okay with that?

Yes. Why wouldn't I be?

 

[ZenMode]

You are making shit up again. Trump is authorized to retain any document he wishes.

When was the PRA ruled to be unconstitutional?

 

[Truth Detector]

Again, ALL documents, except for his truly personal documents, are required to be turned over to the NARA before he left office. The NARA gave him plenty of time to do the right thing. He chose not to, so the Federal Government went and got them.

Where does it say, "before he leaves office"?

The Presidential Records Act (PRA) of 1978, 44 U.S.C. ß2201-2209, governs the official records of Presidents and Vice Presidents that were created or received after January 20, 1981 (i.e., beginning with the Reagan Administration). The PRA changed the legal ownership of the official records of the President from private to public, and established a new statutory structure under which Presidents, and subsequently NARA, must manage the records of their Administrations. The PRA was amended in 2014, which established several new provisions.

Specifically, the PRA:

• Establishes public ownership of all Presidential records and defines the term Presidential records.
• Requires that Vice-Presidential records be treated in the same way as Presidential records.
• Places the responsibility for the custody and management of incumbent Presidential records with the President.
• Requires that the President and his staff take all practical steps to file personal records separately from Presidential records.
• Allows the incumbent President to dispose of records that no longer have administrative, historical, informational, or evidentiary value, once the views of the Archivist of the United States on the proposed disposal have been obtained in writing.
• Establishes in law that any incumbent Presidential records (whether textual or electronic) held on courtesy storage by the Archivist remain in the exclusive legal custody of the President and that any request or order for access to such records must be made to the President, not NARA.
• Establishes that Presidential records automatically transfer into the legal custody of the Archivist as soon as the President leaves office.
• Establishes a process by which the President may restrict and the public may obtain access to these records after the President leaves office; specifically, the PRA allows for public access to Presidential records through the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) beginning five years after the end of the Administration, but allows the President to invoke as many as six specific restrictions to public access for up to twelve years.
• Codifies the process by which former and incumbent Presidents conduct reviews for executive privilege prior to public release of records by NARA (which had formerly been governed by Executive order 13489).
• Establishes procedures for Congress, courts, and subsequent Administrations to obtain “special access” to records from NARA that remain closed to the public, following a privilege review period by the former and incumbent Presidents; the procedures governing such special access requests continue to be governed by the relevant provisions of E.O. 13489.
• Establishes preservation requirements for official business conducted using non-official electronic messaging accounts: any individual creating Presidential records must not use non-official electronic messaging accounts unless that individual copies an official account as the message is created or forwards a complete copy of the record to an official messaging account. (A similar provision in the Federal Records Act applies to federal agencies.)
• Prevents an individual who has been convicted of a crime related to the review, retention, removal, or destruction of records from being given access to any original records.

 

[ZenMode]

Blatant lie. Biden had the documents illegal for YEARS. The only way he could've obtained them is to steal them. He had NO authorization to have those documents for ANY LENGTH OF TIME.

Further, he exposed those documents to agents traveling to Ukraine and China.

Further, Joe Biden was PAID by those governments.

That's espionage, dude. He was also accepting bribes from foreign governments for personal gain as an officer of the United States. That's treason, dude.

You can believe whatever you'd like regarding Joe, espionage, his intentions with the classified docs.... it's irrelevant. Trump had a year and a half to to turn over what was legally required to be in the National Archives. He decided not to turn them over, and lie about it, so the government went and got them. He's a big boy. He made his decisions. If he gets busted, tough shit. FAFO.

 

[ZenMode]

Where does it say, "before he leaves office"?

The Presidential Records Act (PRA) of 1978, 44 U.S.C. ß2201-2209, governs the official records of Presidents and Vice Presidents that were created or received after January 20, 1981 (i.e., beginning with the Reagan Administration). The PRA changed the legal ownership of the official records of the President from private to public, and established a new statutory structure under which Presidents, and subsequently NARA, must manage the records of their Administrations. The PRA was amended in 2014, which established several new provisions.

Specifically, the PRA:

• Establishes public ownership of all Presidential records and defines the term Presidential records.
• Requires that Vice-Presidential records be treated in the same way as Presidential records.
• Places the responsibility for the custody and management of incumbent Presidential records with the President.
• Requires that the President and his staff take all practical steps to file personal records separately from Presidential records.
• Allows the incumbent President to dispose of records that no longer have administrative, historical, informational, or evidentiary value, once the views of the Archivist of the United States on the proposed disposal have been obtained in writing.
• Establishes in law that any incumbent Presidential records (whether textual or electronic) held on courtesy storage by the Archivist remain in the exclusive legal custody of the President and that any request or order for access to such records must be made to the President, not NARA.
• Establishes that Presidential records automatically transfer into the legal custody of the Archivist as soon as the President leaves office.
• Establishes a process by which the President may restrict and the public may obtain access to these records after the President leaves office; specifically, the PRA allows for public access to Presidential records through the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) beginning five years after the end of the Administration, but allows the President to invoke as many as six specific restrictions to public access for up to twelve years.
• Codifies the process by which former and incumbent Presidents conduct reviews for executive privilege prior to public release of records by NARA (which had formerly been governed by Executive order 13489).
• Establishes procedures for Congress, courts, and subsequent Administrations to obtain “special access” to records from NARA that remain closed to the public, following a privilege review period by the former and incumbent Presidents; the procedures governing such special access requests continue to be governed by the relevant provisions of E.O. 13489.
• Establishes preservation requirements for official business conducted using non-official electronic messaging accounts: any individual creating Presidential records must not use non-official electronic messaging accounts unless that individual copies an official account as the message is created or forwards a complete copy of the record to an official messaging account. (A similar provision in the Federal Records Act applies to federal agencies.)
• Prevents an individual who has been convicted of a crime related to the review, retention, removal, or destruction of records from being given access to any original records.

I took that from a FAQ's document on the federal government's site. Here's at least some of the wording IN the PRA:

(g)(1) Upon the conclusion of a President’s term of office, or if a President serves consecutive terms upon the conclusion of the last term, the Archivist of the United States shall assume responsibility for the custody, control, and preservation of, and access to, the Presidential records of that President. The Archivist shall have an affirmative duty to make such records available to the public as rapidly and completely as possible consistent with the provisions of this chapter.

Presidential Records (44 U.S.C. Chapter 22)

(44 U.S.C. Chapter 22) § 2201. Definitions § 2202. Ownership of Presidential records § 2203. Management and custody of Presidential records § 2204. Restrictions on access to Presidential records § 2205. Exceptions to restricted access § 2206. Regulations § 2207. Vice-Presidential records § Note...

www.archives.gov

It's very odd that Trump supporters think the requirements of the PRA are being made up just to get Trump.