Oh Lord, where Ark thou?

[PostmodernProphet]

I'll be generous and continue using the lowest estimate for polar bears coming into existence... some estimates are as high as 1.5 million years ago.

You believe it was more than 70,000 years ago that Noah was alive and sailed? ? So, 68,000 before Jesus birth?

I make no estimate at all about either when the flood occurred or when polar bears evolved.......I am curious though, is the guesstimate based on fossil evidence of features that distinguish polar bears from the bear of origin?.......or is it derived from assumptions based on how long changes might be expected in the realm of random spontaneity....the interesting thing about an intelligent designer is that she could accomplish the same thing in a single generation that random chance required tens of thousands of years to bring about....

consider for example that all the variety of dogs we experience today were probably first derived from wild canines less than 20,000 years ago........if a chihuahua and a St Bernard have a common ancestor 20,000 years ago, could not an entity that created DNA and "knits things together in its mother's womb" accomplish polar bears much more quickly?.....

 

[Dutch Uncle]

I make no estimate at all about either when the flood occurred or when polar bears evolved.......I am curious though, is the guesstimate based on fossil evidence of features that distinguish polar bears from the bear of origin?.......or is it derived from assumptions based on how long changes might be expected in the realm of random spontaneity....the interesting thing about an intelligent designer is that she could accomplish the same thing in a single generation that random chance required tens of thousands of years to bring about....

consider for example that all the variety of dogs we experience today were probably first derived from wild canines less than 20,000 years ago........if a chihuahua and a St Bernard have a common ancestor 20,000 years ago, could not an entity that created DNA and "knits things together in its mother's womb" accomplish polar bears much more quickly?.....

Like Satan?

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/how-wolves-really-became-dogs-180970014/

The domestication of dogs was one of the most extraordinary events in human history,” Hare says.

 

[Code1211]

1. Your "digressions" non-withstanding, you have yet to just concede a point. You were wrong on a few things. Deal with it or don't, but spare me the smoke blowing.

2. YOU injected the climate change debate in your assertions regarding Nye's scientific credibility. I merely responded with common sense observations that to date cannot be answered straight forward by climate change deniers. Instead of directly dealing with my statements, you blather on with some drivel about the Sahara and essentially create your own discussion that ignores what you don't like or can't dismiss.

3. You ignore the other points regarding #3 and #5

So my previous post stands valid.

AGW does not exist. Proving it does not exist is not even a thing. It is up to the folks that are creating it out of nothing to prove that it DOES exist.

Nye is a proponent of AGW Science and as such is a propagandist, not a scientist. No mystery there.

Wrong is an interesting word. How can anyone be wrong on anything that is not a proven and observed FACT? Spiritual and non-physical things are not observable.

 

[Mason Michaels]

I make no estimate at all about either when the flood occurred or when polar bears evolved.......I am curious though, is the guesstimate based on fossil evidence of features that distinguish polar bears from the bear of origin?.......or is it derived from assumptions based on how long changes might be expected in the realm of random spontaneity....the interesting thing about an intelligent designer is that she could accomplish the same thing in a single generation that random chance required tens of thousands of years to bring about....

consider for example that all the variety of dogs we experience today were probably first derived from wild canines less than 20,000 years ago........if a chihuahua and a St Bernard have a common ancestor 20,000 years ago, could not an entity that created DNA and "knits things together in its mother's womb" accomplish polar bears much more quickly?.....

How did the ice age reflect on the life and times of polar bears?Many animals disappeared during that period.

 

[Cypress]

"God doesn't play dice with the universe"

A famous Einstein quote which is frequently misinterpreted.
Einstein reputedly believed in Spinoza's god of nature, but not specifically in an Abrahamic God.

The comment was Einstein's way of saying he was dubious of the probabalistic interpretation of quantum mechanics since Einstein was a believer in determinism.

 

[ZenMode]

I make no estimate at all about either when the flood occurred or when polar bears evolved.......

By claiming that Noah had polar bears on the ark, or that polar bears evolved after the flood, you actually are making "when" claims.

I am curious though, is the guesstimate based on fossil evidence of features that distinguish polar bears from the bear of origin?.......or is it derived from assumptions based on how long changes might be expected in the realm of random spontaneity....the interesting thing about an intelligent designer is that she could accomplish the same thing in a single generation that random chance required tens of thousands of years to bring about....

So just when did polar bears arise as a separate subspecies? Genetic models show that the emergence of the polar bear could have taken place as recently as 70,000 years ago or as many as 1.5 million years ago. For many years, a fossil found at Kew Bridge in London was considered the oldest polar bear specimen. The fossil then placed the evolution around 70,000 years ago. But recently, scientists uncovered a fossilized jawbone from an island in the Arctic Ocean midway between Norway and the North Pole, dated to be at least 100,000 years old. Scientists believe this jawbone may represent the remains of the oldest-known polar bear, thus marking the appearance of the polar bear earlier than previously thought.

https://www.pbs.org/wnet/nature/arc...ow that the,evolution around 70,000 years ago.

consider for example that all the variety of dogs we experience today were probably first derived from wild canines less than 20,000 years ago........if a chihuahua and a St Bernard have a common ancestor 20,000 years ago, could not an entity that created DNA and "knits things together in its mother's womb" accomplish polar bears much more quickly?.....
.
There are few limits on "coulds" if you put aside any need for evidence.

.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

A simple summation of two integers isn't that revealing to me.

What I am alluding to is that mathematics, properly viewed, seemingly reveals some kind deep, underlying truth to nature and reality as a whole. The Fibonacci sequence and the golden ratio seem to be embedded in the very fabric of nature itself --> and we really don't know what that means, but it must mean something.

There are certainly laws within the Universe akin to rules in a game. Anyone who violates those rules, especially if they do it often enough, is likely to remove themselves from the game.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

AGW does not exist. Proving it does not exist is not even a thing. It is up to the folks that are creating it out of nothing to prove that it DOES exist.

Nye is a proponent of AGW Science and as such is a propagandist, not a scientist. No mystery there.

Wrong is an interesting word. How can anyone be wrong on anything that is not a proven and observed FACT? Spiritual and non-physical things are not observable.

More evidence your view of the world is more about belief, not facts. No worries since many people, especially Trump’s poorly educated, believe as you do.

A telling point is that you hide your educational and experiential background. That’s fine. All minimum wage workers have a right to free speech too.

 

[Cypress]

There are certainly laws within the Universe akin to rules in a game. Anyone who violates those rules, especially if they do it often enough, is likely to remove themselves from the game.

The 64 thousand dollar question is what was the origin of those laws and mathematical truths.

There is no obvious reason that there has to be order rather than disorder

There is no obvious reason the universe had to have mass and energy balanced in such a way that the universe is constructed on the basis of Euclidean geometry, which is actually a very unique case of geometry.

Those are great scientific questions we may, or may not, ever really understand beyond just making hypotheses and educated guesses.

That is why I love science so much, it pushes us right to the very edge of what is knowable, and it tests the limits of human cognition.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

The 64 thousand dollar question is what was the origin of those laws and mathematical truths.

There is no obvious reason that there has to be order rather than disorder

There is no obvious reason the universe had to have mass and energy balanced in such a way that the universe is constructed on the basis of Euclidean geometry, which is actually a very unique case of geometry.

Those are great scientific questions we may, or may not, ever really understand beyond just making hypotheses and educated guesses.

That is why I love science so much, it pushes us right to the very edge of what is knowable, and it tests the limits of human cognition.

Agreed on the question.

Sorry, disagreed on some of the logic since without order, we wouldn’t be here. If the multiverse theory is correct, are there universes which are dead and completely chaotic? We know of over 5000 exoplanets. Given the odds, most are devoid of life, but some may harbor life due to the properties of our Universe….but we don’t know why life is on Earth and no where else to be found. I agree it’s out there but that’s belief and logical extrapolation, not fact.

One of the Lunar astronauts once made a comment something like “How can one see all of this beauty and not believe in God?” IMHO, he’s making a perceptual mistake. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and not proof of the existence of God.


What is, is. While I believe there is more to existence than the physical universe, there is zero evidence of my belief.

 

[Cypress]

Agreed on the question.

Sorry, disagreed on some of the logic since without order, we wouldn’t be here. If the multiverse theory is correct, are there universes which are dead and completely chaotic? We know of over 5000 exoplanets. Given the odds, most are devoid of life, but some may harbor life due to the properties of our Universe….but we don’t know why life is on Earth and no where else to be found. I agree it’s out there but that’s belief and logical extrapolation, not fact.

One of the Lunar astronauts once made a comment something like “How can one see all of this beauty and not believe in God?” IMHO, he’s making a perceptual mistake. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and not proof of the existence of God.


What is, is. While I believe there is more to existence than the physical universe, there is zero evidence of my belief.

thanks for the response

Of course we wouldn't be here if there was not a presice balance of atomic mass, energy, and dark matter in the universe, we wouldn't be here without the mathematical structure underlying the universe, and we wouldn't be here without the Higgs field.

The fact that our universe turned out that way, indeed the fact that there is something rather than nothing, and there is order rather than disorder is an open scientific question.

We know approximately how our universe turned out, the question is why did it turn out that way and not another way?

 

[Dutch Uncle]

thanks for the response

Of course we wouldn't be here if there was not a presice balance of atomic mass, energy, and dark matter in the universe, we wouldn't be here without the mathematical structure underlying the universe, and we wouldn't be here without the Higgs field.

The fact that our universe turned out that way, indeed the fact that there is something rather than nothing, and there is order rather than disorder is an open scientific question.

We know approximately how our universe turned out, the question is why did it turn out that way and not another way?

My best guess is to step outward a step with the multiverse theory and apply the Infinite Monkey Theorem. Our universe is one of the successes.

https://learning.cehrd.edu.np/content/W4S2013/wp/i/Infinite_monkey_theorem.htm

 

[Cypress]

My best guess is to step outward a step with the multiverse theory and apply the Infinite Monkey Theorem. Our universe is one of the successes.

https://learning.cehrd.edu.np/content/W4S2013/wp/i/Infinite_monkey_theorem.htm

I always thought that is was noteworthy that the monkeys are pretty much guaranteed to never be able to produce Hamlet even if given the entire age of the universe to accomplish it - although we cannot say the probability is
precisely zero, the chances are so infinitesimally small as to be effectively zero.

It is a lesson to me that human imagination and creativity is unique.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

I always thought that is was noteworthy that the monkeys are pretty much guaranteed to never be able to produce Hamlet even if given the entire age of the universe to accomplish it - although we cannot say the probability is
precisely zero, the chances are so infinitesimally small as to be effectively zero.

It is a lesson to me that human imagination and creativity is unique.

It’s a theoretical experiment since 1) chimps would have to be trained to bang on typewriter keys and 2) live forever.

 

[Cypress]

It’s a theoretical experiment since 1) chimps would have to be trained to bang on typewriter keys and 2) live forever.

The "forever" part is what I don't think is realistic. The universe had a definite beginning, and eventually will, for all intents and purposes, die when the the expansion reaches a temperature of absolute zero Kelvin degrees and all atomic motion ceases.

So I think the fair and realistic test would be to let trillions of monkeys type for as long as the age of the universe, to try to recreate Hamlet.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

The "forever" part is what I don't think is realistic. The universe had a definite beginning, and eventually will, for all intents and purposes, die when the the expansion reaches a temperature of absolute zero and all atomic motion ceases.

So I think the fair and realistic test would be to let trillions of monkeys type for as long as the age of the universe, to try to recreate Hamlet.

Agreed about the death of the Universe.

IF there are multiverses, others are being created and dying as we discuss this. I strongly doubt we’re in the one and only Universe or living on the one and only planet in the Universe with life.

 

[Cypress]

Agreed about the death of the Universe.

IF there are multiverses, others are being created and dying as we discuss this. I strongly doubt we’re in the one and only Universe or living on the one and only planet in the Universe with life.

Infinite possibilities are certainly in the realm of the multiverse.

But we have no tangible evidence of a multiverse, and as for the monkey experiment, I would prefer to confine it to our universe. At least in our universe, the lesson of the monkeys to me is that human imagination at its best - aka, Shakespeare, Michelangelo, Mozart - is unique and precious.

Just my two cents

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Infinite possibilities are certainly in the realm of the multiverse.

But we have no tangible evidence of a multiverse, and as for the monkey experiment, I would prefer to confine it to our universe. At least in our universe, the lesson of the monkeys to me is that human imagination at its best - aka, Shakespeare, Michelangelo, Mozart - is unique and precious.

Just my two cents

Sorry, dude, but I think you’re overthinking the Infinite Monkey Theorem. No sane, educated person would expect that it’s possible to actually conduct the experiment.

There is no tangible evidence of anything except the physical universe. Period. No spiritual existence, nothing external to the Universe itself, no evidence about causal factors to the Big Bang. Nothing.

It’s all theory, speculation and belief.

 

[Cypress]

Sorry, dude, but I think you’re overthinking the Infinite Monkey Theorem. No sane, educated person would expect that it’s possible to actually conduct the experiment.

There is no tangible evidence of anything except the physical universe. Period. No spiritual existence, nothing external to the Universe itself, no evidence about causal factors to the Big Bang. Nothing.

It’s all theory, speculation and belief.

The monkey experiment is just a mathematical abstraction which provides us real insight into the nature of possibility.

I am just saying the constraints on the mathematical abstraction should be based on what we actually do know about the universe.

 

[PostmodernProphet]

I am a jack-ass of all trades, master of none

why do you even bother to post?......