Suspended for not standing for pledge!

Socrtease said:
Yes and in both of those examples you VOLUNTARILY went there. I can't believe I hear you arguing in support of forced respect. I quit standing for the pledge in 5th grade and didn't so much as put my hand on my heart for the flag until I was in the Army but I VOLUNTEERED for that so I was required to pay my respects. But as a private citizen I have no obligation to stand or anything else and if you don't like it I invite you to come make me.
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Right. You can be rude if you wish. However, there are levels of rudeness that will get you punished in places of education, are there not?

Some I'll bet you would even support. Drawing the arbitrary line here because something other people are saying mentions the magic-man is silly.
 
Manors should not come from schools anyway, they should come from home. To me there is a place for maners and a time to disregard them. I agree when in the palace of a forign nation one should stand for the national anthem or the president.

If you are there by force, I do not belive you owe them respect.

If you are compelled by the government to be at school, then compelled to show respect to others as they are compelled to pledge alegence to God... That is asking to much in my opinion.
 
Damocles said:
The same way it would be to reject a yarmulke and attempt to visit the western wall, to not stand during the Russian Anthem while in their place. To reject standing while others are praying, etc.

Is it that big of a deal? No. As I said, and here repeat, this isn't where I would have made my stand if I were the teacher. However, it is preposterous to say that the only possible reason they have to ask them to stand is to respect "Under God" in the pledge or even to respect the pledge. It is simply manners. I would expect my child to stand even if I were not a citizen.
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So trampling on a student's first amendment right is OK so long as it is in the pursuit of "manners" or some vague notion of "respect" that cannot be articulated without resorting to silly comparisons?

You are the one that keeps talking about respect. I have no idea why students are required to stand during the pledge. If anyone brought up respecting god or the pledge it was in response to your ridiculous, amorphous "respect" idea that you keep yammering on about.

Finally, if my child had strong feelings about the matter I would respect his or her choice to respectfully decline to participate in the charade and expect others to do the same.
 
Jarod said:
Manors should not come from schools anyway, they should come from home. To me there is a place for maners and a time to disregard them. I agree when in the palace of a forign nation one should stand for the national anthem or the president.

If you are there by force, I do not belive you owe them respect.

If you are compelled by the government to be at school, then compelled to show respect to others as they are compelled to pledge alegence to God... That is asking to much in my opinion.
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However, you expect them to be followed at school. Manners come from almost every instance of interaction with adults and others.

You want the teacher to punish other students who are cursing at them and will not sit down and respect the classroom. Yet you refuse this one because somebody mentions something you dislike and because your beliefs resemble the assumed sentiment.
 
These kids were not suspended because they didn't stand for their fellow students. They were suspended because their fellow students were offended they didn't stand for the pledge. You have NO RIGHT to go through life unoffended. I can guarentee that if these three had stood but NOT faced the flag they would have gotten the same punishment if it had been noticed. This has everything to do with a new level of patriotism in this country that is equated with wearing flag pins and singing the national anthem and having your hand over your heart and all that other right wing false outrage bullshit about what truly makes one a patriot.
 
In fact I belive it would be good manors for those standing and reciting the pledge to respect theose who choose not to participate and allow them to quietly declilne. That would be good maners.

Also, Ill bet money that if you asked the school board why they require the kids to stand... They would not answer, to "enforce good maners". They would answer, "to show respect for the flag and the pledge".
 
Damocles said:
However, you expect them to be followed at school. Manners come from almost every instance of interaction with adults and others.

You want the teacher to punish other students who are cursing at them and will not sit down and respect the classroom. Yet you refuse this one because somebody mentions something you dislike.
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So now sitting quietly during a time of non-instruction is akin to cursing at the teacher and not sitting down?

Wow. You're off the deep end on this one Damo.
 
WOW..............!

Socrtease said:
Yes and in both of those examples you VOLUNTARILY went there. I can't believe I hear you arguing in support of forced respect. I quit standing for the pledge in 5th grade and didn't so much as put my hand on my heart for the flag until I was in the Army but I VOLUNTEERED for that so I was required to pay my respects. But as a private citizen I have no obligation to stand or anything else and if you don't like it I invite you to come make me.
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Soco became a socialist at age 11...are you still saluting the hammer and sickle...or the ACLU flag?
 
Damocles said:
However, you expect them to be followed at school. Manners come from almost every instance of interaction with adults and others.

You want the teacher to punish other students who are cursing at them and will not sit down and respect the classroom. Yet you refuse this one because somebody mentions something you dislike and because your beliefs resemble the assumed sentiment.
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Your silly example is different, sure kids should sit and respect the classroom, to do otherwise would frustrate the reason people are there in the first place, to learn. I have no problem with rules requireing kids to not behave in a way that distracts others from learning at school.
 
Dungheap said:
So trampling on a student's first amendment right is OK so long as it is in the pursuit of "manners" or some vague notion of "respect" that cannot be articulated without resorting to silly comparisons?

You are the one that keeps talking about respect. I have no idea why students are required to stand during the pledge. If anyone brought up respecting god or the pledge it was in response to your ridiculous, amorphous "respect" idea that you keep yammering on about.

Finally, if my child had strong feelings about the matter I would respect his or her choice to respectfully decline to participate in the charade and expect others to do the same.
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This is silly. It again flies in the face of what we know to be true. That same student could not continue to show the same disrespect for the teacher by talking over him or refusing to participate in a classroom activity the same way.

It is solely because other people are saying something that they don't have to say that you object to this. I believe that there could be other reasons for it and have less objection to the school's action.
 
Dungheap said:
So now sitting quietly during a time of non-instruction is akin to cursing at the teacher and not sitting down?

Wow. You're off the deep end on this one Damo.
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I don't believe so. I equate all manners to the same level, while you render some to be good and others to be bad based solely on the proximity of mention of the magic-man.

I object less to the action of the school because I think that learning that it is polite to stand during this isn't that horrible of a lesson.
 
Damocles said:
This is silly. It again flies in the face of what we know to be true. That same student could not continue to show the same disrespect for the teacher by talking over him or refusing to participate in a classroom activity the same way.

It is solely because other people are saying something that they don't have to say that you object to this. I believe that there could be other reasons for it and have less objection to the school's action.
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I would be okay with a rule that said you cannot talk or be disruptive while others are involved in a pledge of alegence ceramony. They should be allowed to sit quitely.
 
Dungheap said:
So now sitting quietly during a time of non-instruction is akin to cursing at the teacher and not sitting down?

Wow. You're off the deep end on this one Damo.
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you still fail to understand....

If the teacher asks that you stand when answering a question, say on evolution. Does that mean you are endorsing the answer or pledging allegiance to the answer? No, it is a simple instruction by the teacher that you follow. Allowing kids to determine when they will and will not follow instructions leads down a very slippery slope.

One thing no one has answered from those that share your point of view is this.... how is it any different to sit quietly vs. stand quietly during the pledge? The act of standing or sitting does not effect whether or not you say the pledge. That portion does not endorse the pledge or not. It is the act of silence that conveys the message of support or the lack thereof.

The sitting or standing is simply two things...

1) Respect for the authority of the teacher who requests you stand

and

2) Respect for those who do wish to say the pledge.

Now, is this an issue every teacher should push? Probably not. But then many teachers choose not to have students stand when answering questions.
 
Damocles said:
This is silly. It again flies in the face of what we know to be true. That same student could not continue to show the same disrespect for the teacher by talking over him or refusing to participate in a classroom activity the same way.

It is solely because other people are saying something that they don't have to say that you object to this. I believe that there could be other reasons for it and have less objection to the school's action.
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How is it possible for you to discuss what we "know to be true" and in the next breath launch off into some hypothetical scenario that has nothing to do with the actual facts of this particular controversy. In any event, if a student was disruptive by cursing at the teacher or showing disrespect by refusing to participate he or she could be punished for that, and harshly.

That's not really the issue though. The issue is whether the teacher should have required to the student to stand in the first place. If the teacher didn't require the student to stand, the student doesn't have the opportunity to disrespect the teacher by exercising his first amendment right by refusing to obey his or her order. Instead, the student just sits there and after the 30 seconds or so of the pledge, the class can get down to business.
 
Dungheap said:
How is it possible for you to discuss what we "know to be true" and in the next breath launch off into some hypothetical scenario that has nothing to do with the actual facts of this particular controversy. In any event, if a student was disruptive by cursing at the teacher or showing disrespect by refusing to participate he or she could be punished for that, and harshly.

That's not really the issue though. The issue is whether the teacher should have required to the student to stand in the first place. If the teacher didn't require the student to stand, the student doesn't have the opportunity to disrespect the teacher by exercising his first amendment right by refusing to obey his or her order. Instead, the student just sits there and after the 30 seconds or so of the pledge, the class can get down to business.
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Because when speaking of manners, we use examples. Don't be so disingenuous. And one day off from school is not "harshly" punished by any means.
 
I do not feel Americans should ever be required by the government to be polite for the soul purpose of being polite.
 
There is also an assumption that they actually SAY the pledge. I don't believe there is any indication that ANY of the students say it.
 
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