The Gospel of Thomas

Perry Phimosis said:
WHY is God the first uncaused cause and why does God not need a cause? Why not simply say "The universe was the first uncaused cause"?

All we can say from the Big Bang is that apparently the Universe started. We don't know why, we don't know what came "before" time.
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The Christian philosophers of the Middle Ages were keen to use the logic, reason, and the syllogisms of Plato and Aristotle and put it in the service of Christianity.

Augustine, Abelard, Aquinas were highly educated men who desired to infuse Christianity with a strong measure of reason and logic.
 
Cypress said:
The Christian philosophers of the Middle Ages were keen to use the logic, reason, and the syllogisms of Plato and Aristotle and put it in the service of Christianity.

Augustine, Abelard, Aquinas were highly educated men who desired to infuse Christianity with a strong measure of reason and logic.
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I have always been a fan of the Scholastics. Anselm's Ontological Argument used to be my favorite. Until I heard about Kant's critique which seems pretty reasonable.

The thing I'm finding interesting here on JPP is that so many of the faithful seem incapable of understanding how an atheist could possibly talk about the concept of "god". As if being an atheist renders you incapable of discussing things theoretically. And my fascination with the Christian faith is informed by my many decades as a believer, but also by the fun philosophy and conceptual stuff I've picked up from reading and various philosophy classes in undergrad.

I am more curious why some of the faithful seem so resistant to even THINKING about God.
 
Cypress said:
That's the ultimate mystery.

We know there is at least one observable universe.

We don't know if it's the only universe, or even that it's the first universe. Eternal cosmic inflation hypothesis and the multiverse hypothesis are wonderful ideas, but they may never be testable.
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As a species, I think we can divine the answers, but we'd have to survive long enough to do it. LOL

At present, we must go with the available evidence.
 
Perry Phimosis said:
It is evidence of the start of our universe. But we don't have any idea what kicked it off. A lot of people of actual faith who believe in God like to use that opening to hypothesize that "GOD" did it....
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With "GOD" being the force that initiated creation. Some people think that force is STUPID. As unintelligent as a rockfall in California. An accident of nature instead of a premeditated act. I disagree with them since intelligence doesn't come from stupidity.
 
Perry Phimosis said:
I have always been a fan of the Scholastics. Anselm's Ontological Argument used to be my favorite. Until I heard about Kant's critique which seems pretty reasonable.

The thing I'm finding interesting here on JPP is that so many of the faithful seem incapable of understanding how an atheist could possibly talk about the concept of "god". As if being an atheist renders you incapable of discussing things theoretically. And my fascination with the Christian faith is informed by my many decades as a believer, but also by the fun philosophy and conceptual stuff I've picked up from reading and various philosophy classes in undergrad.

I am more curious why some of the faithful seem so resistant to even THINKING about God.
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The medieval philosophers are fun to learn about, and their intelligence was nothing to sneeze at.

I look at religion the same way I look at history, science, and art. They are important parts of human experience that everyone can talk about.

I don't have to be a trained biologist to discuss genetics, and I don't have to be an artist to discuss Michelangelo.
 
Perry Phimosis said:
I'm an atheist on JPP....
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Perry Phimosis said:
...I am more curious why some of the faithful seem so resistant to even THINKING about God.
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If you were as educated as you believe yourself to be, you'd know the answer is found in places like this: https://www.discovermagazine.com/mind/religion-and-iq Religion & IQ
The present study examined whether IQ relates systematically to denomination and income within the framework of the g nexus, using representative data from the National Longitudinal Study of Youth (NLSY97). Atheists score 1.95 IQ points higher than Agnostics, 3.82 points higher than Liberal persuasions, and 5.89 IQ points higher than Dogmatic persuasions. Denominations differ significantly in IQ and income. Religiosity declines between ages 12 to 17. It is suggested that IQ makes an individual likely to gravitate toward a denomination and level of achievement that best fit his or hers particular level of cognitive complexity. Ontogenetically speaking this means that contemporary denominations are rank ordered by largely hereditary variations in brain efficiency (i.e. IQ). In terms of evolution, modern Atheists are reacting rationally to cognitive and emotional challenges, whereas Liberals and, in particular Dogmatics, still rely on ancient, pre-rational, supernatural and wishful thinking.
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Additionally, if you were as smart and educated as you believe yourself to be, you'd understand that there are levels of learning. Expecting a average 7th grader to understand multiplication and decimal points is reasonable. Expecting them to understand Calculus is not reasonable, but interesting when one is found. In religion, like martial arts, there are levels of understanding: Rote, understanding the words, and understanding the higher message.

Understanding the social indoctrination of morals is important to society. You want to destroy that indoctrination instead of understanding it and using it...if not modernizing it. You attack and demean all religions, just like the White Supremacists attacked and demean our government, using the same logic: You feel you know better and seek to impose that superiority upon others.
 
Dutch Uncle said:
With "GOD" being the force that initiated creation. Some people think that force is STUPID. As unintelligent as a rockfall in California. An accident of nature instead of a premeditated act. I disagree with them since intelligence doesn't come from stupidity.
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Why does it require an "intelligence"? If so, who created this intelligence?
 
Dutch Uncle said:
If you were as educated as you believe yourself to be
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Don't push it. I have a Doctorate.

, you'd know the answer is found in places like this: https://www.discovermagazine.com/mind/religion-and-iq Religion & IQ
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Because I am familiar with something called a "library" I have much more to go on than just a Discover Magazine article. Thank youverymuch.

Additionally, if you were as smart and educated as you believe yourself to be, you'd understand that there are levels of learning.
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I am quickly growing annoyed with you. Please do attempt to remain civil as my ability to hold my tongue much longer is limited.

You attack and demean all religions
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I beg your pardon. I actually LIKE a lot of Christianity and I've been quite clear on that point throughout my posts.

I will NOT have YOU lie about my position.

, just like the White Supremacists attacked and demean our government, using the same logic: You feel you know better and seek to impose that superiority upon others.
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I cannot help it if you lack education. Do not put that on me. Your laziness is not related to me in any way.
 
Perry Phimosis said:
Don't push it. I have a Doctorate....
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Results count. I'm a pilot but if I don't know shit about flying, people are going to wonder.

You're obviously not smart or educated enough to understand what "I don't do text walls" means.

Perry Phimosis said:
Because I am familiar with something called a "library" I have much more to go on than just a Discover Magazine article. Thank youverymuch.
I am quickly growing annoyed with you. Please do attempt to remain civil as my ability to hold my tongue much longer is limited.
I beg your pardon. I actually LIKE a lot of Christianity and I've been quite clear on that point throughout my posts.
I will NOT have YOU lie about my position.
I cannot help it if you lack education. Do not put that on me. Your laziness is not related to me in any way.
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Translation: I'm very emotional and tend to overreact with the slightest provocation.

Awesome, Perry. Are you under a lot of stress, or is this more of a biological issue?
 
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Dutch Uncle said:
You're obviously not smart or educated enough to understand what "I don't do text walls" means.
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You are obviously stupid because I couldn't care less what YOU do.


My actions are NOT predicated on what pleases you.

Translation: I'm very emotional and tend to overreact with the slightest provocation.
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You are now free to fuck right off.

Awesome, Perry. Are you under a lot of stress, or is this more of a biological issue?
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Fuck you.
 
Perry Phimosis said:
When you bias the statement to sound absurd it sounds absurd.

Your position has exactly as little evidence as mine. Sorry to break it to you.
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You might try saying that in the mirror then reading your own posts, Perry.

Exactly! No fucking shit, Perry!!!! You got it!!!! Now you know why I think you are an idiot for getting so excited over something that neither of us can prove. Wow, you got a DOCTORATE and it only took you three fucking days to see the truth. Kudos!!!
 
Perry Phimosis said:
You are obviously stupid because I couldn't care less what YOU do.

My actions are NOT predicated on what pleases you.

You are now free to fuck right off.

Fuck you.
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Another reason to suspect that you are under a lot of stress and, probably, female. Certainly under 35.

You've become emotionally upset over a discussion that both of us have agreed is unprovable. There is ZERO evidence about what caused the Big Bang, whether multiverses exist and whether our personalities survive our mortal demise.

It's all just fun speculation...yet you are emotionally disturbed by it. Why? Stress could account for it.

FWIW, human beings evolved on the plains, not cubicles. Living in cubicles causes stress.

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Cypress said:
Same here. I may drift somewhere between agnosticism, deism, and some sort of vague unitarian universalism, but I periodically really do enjoy the sacred space of the Eastern liturgy, the ritual and tradition, and sharing that time with relatives.

The vodka and food at the Saint's days feasts ain't bad either!
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I visited a Unitarian church back in 1985, as I was invited to go as a guest by my divorce councilor. The whole class of 13 (6 men and 7 women) of us were invited and most of the class attended and we set together, and I thought the concept was great. The sermon was all about relationships, how they either build, or destruct! It was a very valuable learning experience for me and the class. It was an eye-opener on how to move on when things don't work out. So it was great timing for me. It turned things around for me and I had a whole new perspective on life after the sermon. Thanks for mentioning them.
 
Perry Phimosis said:
I have always been a fan of the Scholastics. Anselm's Ontological Argument used to be my favorite. Until I heard about Kant's critique which seems pretty reasonable.

The thing I'm finding interesting here on JPP is that so many of the faithful seem incapable of understanding how an atheist could possibly talk about the concept of "god". As if being an atheist renders you incapable of discussing things theoretically. And my fascination with the Christian faith is informed by my many decades as a believer, but also by the fun philosophy and conceptual stuff I've picked up from reading and various philosophy classes in undergrad.

I am more curious why some of the faithful seem so resistant to even THINKING about God.
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I actually think Aquinas' proof of God is more compelling than Descartes' proof of God, though they are both full of holes logically.

I am willing to discuss the crimes of Christianity anytime, but I am also willing to acknowledge how acutely important Christianity was to the development of western civilization and thought. The Medieval monasteries and the scholastic universities were centers of learning which kept alive literacy and resurrected Greek logic through the otherwise intellectual wasteland of the Dark Ages.
 
Dutch Uncle said:
Another reason to suspect that you are under a lot of stress and, probably, female. Certainly under 35.

You've become emotionally upset over a discussion that both of us have agreed is unprovable. There is ZERO evidence about what caused the Big Bang, whether multiverses exist and whether our personalities survive our mortal demise.

It's all just fun speculation...yet you are emotionally disturbed by it. Why? Stress could account for it.

FWIW, human beings evolved on the plains, not cubicles. Living in cubicles causes stress.

5155HfPjBgL._AC_UL210_SR210,210_.jpg
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Fun topics to discuss, for sure.
 
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