What is the difference between the old and new covenant ? Frank

Ralph said:
Not one word did pass away......until Jesus the Christ declared, "IT IS FINISHED." -- John 19:30. Since that time we are no longer bound by the Laws of Moses. In reality no one Gentile was ever bound by the Law of Moses as that law was specific to Biblical Israel, not the world.
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Get off it, Ralph. If you have to lie to defend what the Bible says...you have lost.

You wrote:

"DO NOT THINK THAT I CAME TO DESTORY THE LAW OR THE PROPHETS. I DID NOT COME TO DESTROY (make the earth pass away) BUT TO FULFILL. FOR ASSUEDLY, I SAY TO YOU, TILL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS AWAY, ONE JOT OR ONE TITTLE WILL BY NO MEANS PASS FROM THE LAW UNTIL ALL IS FULFILLED." -- Matt. 5:17-18.

Only a moron or a liar would pretend that the "destroy" in that passage refers to making the Earth pass away...rather than what it obviously refers to, namely to destroy any part of the law.

You are an embarrassment to Christianity with that nonsense.

I am an agnostic...and I can do a better and more ethical defense.
 
Frank Apisa said:
Get off it, Ralph. If you have to lie to defend what the Bible says...you have lost.

You wrote:

"DO NOT THINK THAT I CAME TO DESTORY THE LAW OR THE PROPHETS. I DID NOT COME TO DESTROY (make the earth pass away) BUT TO FULFILL. FOR ASSUEDLY, I SAY TO YOU, TILL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS AWAY, ONE JOT OR ONE TITTLE WILL BY NO MEANS PASS FROM THE LAW UNTIL ALL IS FULFILLED." -- Matt. 5:17-18.

Only a moron or a liar would pretend that the "destroy" in that passage refers to making the Earth pass away...rather than what it obviously refers to, namely to destroy any part of the law.

You are an embarrassment to Christianity with that nonsense.

I am an agnostic...and I can do a better and more ethical defense.
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Either you read the scriptures, (all of them) as truth.....or you allow the traditions of men to make them contradict one another, making lies out of truth. Its not rocket science. Just read the scriptures in context and do not attempt to mold them into your own truth in order to suit your CULT. ;) When Jesus said it is finished (he fulfilled the law) Paul said the Law was nailed to His cross.....I believe the Holy Spirit of God that revealed these truths.
 
Ralph said:
Either you read the scriptures, (all of them) as truth.....or you allow the traditions of men to make them contradict one another, making lies out of truth. Its not rocket science. Just read the scriptures in context and do not attempt to mold them into your own truth in order to suit your CULT. ;) When Jesus said it is finished (he fulfilled the law) Paul said the Law was nailed to His cross.....I believe the Holy Spirit of God that revealed these truths.
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I am reading them as written. You are attempting to distort them because you cannot logically defend your position here.

The quote from JESUS is:

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets. I have come, not to abolish them, but to fulfill them. Of this much I assure you; UNTIL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS AWAY, not the smallest letter of the law, not the smallest part of a letter shall be done away with until it all comes true."

Matthew 5:17ff

JESUS is saying that NO PART of the law...NOT ONE WORD, NOT ONE LETTER, NOT ONE PART OF A LETTER...shall be done away with until the Earth passes away.

Now you are bringing in John to contradict Jesus.

Get off it.

If you cannot contribute reasonably to the Christian defense, at least have the decency to abandon what you are doing, because all that does is to make the Christian position worse!
 
Frank Apisa said:
I am reading them as written. You are attempting to distort them because you cannot logically defend your position here.

The quote from JESUS is:

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets. I have come, not to abolish them, but to fulfill them. Of this much I assure you; UNTIL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS AWAY, not the smallest letter of the law, not the smallest part of a letter shall be done away with until it all comes true."

Matthew 5:17ff

JESUS is saying that NO PART of the law...NOT ONE WORD, NOT ONE LETTER, NOT ONE PART OF A LETTER...shall be done away with until the Earth passes away.

Now you are bringing in John to contradict Jesus.

Get off it.

If you cannot contribute reasonably to the Christian defense, at least have the decency to abandon what you are doing, because all that does is to make the Christian position worse!
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That is what Jesus said although there were no tape recordings at the time... and by all accounts Jesus was an observant Jew.
 
kudzu said:
That is what Jesus said although there were no tape recordings at the time... and by all accounts Jesus was an observant Jew.
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Yup.

Not sure what Ralph is trying to do with his argument...but it seems to be failing big time.
 
Frank Apisa said:
If you see this as me having my ass handed to me...you are nuts.

I am showing you CLEARLY the inconsistencies in your thinking.

All you are doing it to state your blind guess that the Bible reveals truths that I am supposed to accept because you say I have to accept them.

What the Bible does say is that JESUS says he was not here to change any of the law...NOT ONE WORD...NOT ONE LETTER OF ONE WORD...NOT ONE STOKE OF ONE LETTER OF ONE WORD.

So get off your bullshit...and acknowledge that.

If Jesus was not lying...then every word of the law still applies.

But then again...you've got Paul and John to fall back on.

They contradict Jesus (essentially calling him a liar)...but you go with them...rather than with the person YOU claim is GOD.

Try to catch up...then attempt that debate rhetoric about being so far behind.
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No you are trying to show yourself as being right, when you are obviously not. The only blind person here is you
 
kudzu said:
I have often wondered who was writing down all those private conversations Jesus had.
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Yeah...especially since the chroniclers seem to be late-comers to the scene.

But...no matter, because some of the wisdom attributed to Jesus is excellent. His thoughts of loving one another is not original...but there is a beauty and utility to it.

Whoever wrote the material in Matthew 5:17 forward...screwed up a bit.

JESUS specifically says he is not here to change any of the law in any way...and essentially, that in no way should anyone consider it changed.

BUT HE DID...on several occasions, make significant adjustments himself.

I said this earlier:

My personal opinion is that the best guess that can be made about the Bible is that it is a self-serving history of the early Hebrew people interspersed with a fanciful religious mythology. My opinion is that the best guess that can be made about the religious aspects of the Bible is that the people writing the material—the people inventing the god—put their prejudices into the mouth of the god they invented.
 
Frank Apisa said:
I am reading them as written. You are attempting to distort them because you cannot logically defend your position here.

The quote from JESUS is:

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets. I have come, not to abolish them, but to fulfill them. Of this much I assure you; UNTIL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS AWAY, not the smallest letter of the law, not the smallest part of a letter shall be done away with until it all comes true."

Matthew 5:17ff

JESUS is saying that NO PART of the law...NOT ONE WORD, NOT ONE LETTER, NOT ONE PART OF A LETTER...shall be done away with until the Earth passes away.

Now you are bringing in John to contradict Jesus.

Get off it.

If you cannot contribute reasonably to the Christian defense, at least have the decency to abandon what you are doing, because all that does is to make the Christian position worse!
Click to expand...

Since Christ has fulfilled the law, we know that “Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth” (Romans 10:4). The law was our enemy since we could not keep it in our own strength. However, we see what Christ did it for us in Colossians 2:14. “Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to His cross.” All praise to the Lord Jesus Christ for fulfilling the law so that it could be taken away. As we read in Romans 6:14, “For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.” We have been set free to serve the Lord in a way that surpasses the law. For example, instead of merely not stealing, we can give to those in need. As we read in Ephesians 4:28, “Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labor, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.” May we experience the liberty of not being under the law but through the power of the Holy Spirit exceed the demands of the law as we joyfully serve our Savior King, the Lord Jesus Christ. (260.6) (DJ)
 
kudzu said:
The proposed NEW language for the prayer is "Do NOT ABANDON US to temptation"..

The argument being God never temped anyone to do evil.. Even when Jesus was tempted in the wilderness .. that was Satan, not God.
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Did you even read 71 I guess not! Since God does not tempt, I am guessing the scripture means what it says in 71
 
Wolverine said:
Since Christ has fulfilled the law, we know that “Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth” (Romans 10:4). The law was our enemy since we could not keep it in our own strength. However, we see what Christ did it for us in Colossians 2:14. “Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to His cross.” All praise to the Lord Jesus Christ for fulfilling the law so that it could be taken away. As we read in Romans 6:14, “For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.” We have been set free to serve the Lord in a way that surpasses the law. For example, instead of merely not stealing, we can give to those in need. As we read in Ephesians 4:28, “Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labor, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.” May we experience the liberty of not being under the law but through the power of the Holy Spirit exceed the demands of the law as we joyfully serve our Savior King, the Lord Jesus Christ. (260.6) (DJ)
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What the fuck do you mean by "Christ has fulfilled the law?"

And save all that "praise the lord" bullshit for the unwashed. Okay?

JESUS said he was not here to change the law!

You are saying that Jesus was lying...that he was in fact here to do just that.

If you cannot see the inconsistency...you are being willfully blind.
 
Frank Apisa said:
What the fuck do you mean by "Christ has fulfilled the law?"

And save all that "praise the lord" bullshit for the unwashed. Okay?

JESUS said he was not here to change the law!

You are saying that Jesus was lying...that he was in fact here to do just that.

If you cannot see the inconsistency...you are being willfully blind.
Click to expand...

Since Christ has fulfilled the law, we know that “Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth” (Romans 10:4). The law was our enemy since we could not keep it in our own strength. However, we see what Christ did it for us in Colossians 2:14. “Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to His cross.” All praise to the Lord Jesus Christ for fulfilling the law so that it could be taken away. As we read in Romans 6:14, “For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.” We have been set free to serve the Lord in a way that surpasses the law. For example, instead of merely not stealing, we can give to those in need. As we read in Ephesians 4:28, “Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labor, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.” May we experience the liberty of not being under the law but through the power of the Holy Spirit exceed the demands of the law as we joyfully serve our Savior King, the Lord Jesus Christ. (260.6) (DJ)

My Gosh you can't read or comprehend!
 
Wolverine said:
Since Christ has fulfilled the law, we know that “Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth” (Romans 10:4). The law was our enemy since we could not keep it in our own strength. However, we see what Christ did it for us in Colossians 2:14. “Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to His cross.” All praise to the Lord Jesus Christ for fulfilling the law so that it could be taken away. As we read in Romans 6:14, “For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.” We have been set free to serve the Lord in a way that surpasses the law. For example, instead of merely not stealing, we can give to those in need. As we read in Ephesians 4:28, “Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labor, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.” May we experience the liberty of not being under the law but through the power of the Holy Spirit exceed the demands of the law as we joyfully serve our Savior King, the Lord Jesus Christ. (260.6) (DJ)

My Gosh you can't read or comprehend!
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WHAT THE FUCK DO YOU MEAN BY CHRIST HAS FULFILLED THE LAW?

One of the laws is: Thou shalt not murder.

How did Christ fulfill that law?

Another is: Thou shalt not eat "unclean" foods.

How did Christ fulfill that law?
 
It should be clear how the God who in the “Our Father” leads into temptation is the same God who has Jesus say: “My God, my God, why have you abandoned me?” (Mk 15:34).
 
Frank Apisa said:
WHAT THE FUCK DO YOU MEAN BY CHRIST HAS FULFILLED THE LAW?

One of the laws is: Thou shalt not murder.

How did Christ fulfill that law?

Another is: Thou shalt not eat "unclean" foods.

How did Christ fulfill that law?
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Why can't you just admit defeat
As we read in Romans 6:14, “For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Murder is now a capital offense, we are subject to the authorities that God allow to be over us.
also
At about the same time God gave Peter a vision of animals that the Jews regarded as unclean because of the ceremonial law of the Old Testament. The voice from heaven said, "Rise and eat." But Peter protested that they were unclean. And the voice came back with these decisive words in verse 15: "What God has cleansed you must not call common!"
 
kudzu said:
Yes I read it.. but God does NOT lead us into temptation.. Its poor theology.

You must be a literalist.
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What do you not understand! Yes the Bible is the literal word of God

the implication is not that God Himself might tempt us, but rather that He is the one guiding our lives and that we desire Him to lead us away from evil influences that might tempt us to sin. Indeed, the request to not lead us into temptation is followed by the phrase "but deliver us from evil."
 
Wolverine said:
Why can't you just admit defeat
As we read in Romans 6:14, “For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Murder is now a capital offense, we are subject to the authorities that God allow to be over us.
also
At about the same time God gave Peter a vision of animals that the Jews regarded as unclean because of the ceremonial law of the Old Testament. The voice from heaven said, "Rise and eat." But Peter protested that they were unclean. And the voice came back with these decisive words in verse 15: "What God has cleansed you must not call common!"
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Are you actually saying that secular law is more important to you than what your god instructs you?

But if secular law demand that you serve all customers...your god's instructions take precedence?

And you dare ask ME to "just admit defeat?"

You are being slaughtered here...because you are defending what cannot be defended. It is, as you say, a "faith" thing...simply saying a thing is so and sticking to it with stone-headed tenacity.

You still are not even trying to answer the question: What does "Jesus fulfilled the law" mean?

Or the question, "How did Jesus fulfill any of the laws I mentioned?"

Your "faith" (meaning your stone-headedness about your blind guesses)...are fine. You are entitled to them. But if you are going to come into a forum designed for political discussions...you had better be prepared to do a hell of a lot better job of defending your bullshit, because people here are not going to buy that crap.

Now...go in peace...but above all else...GO. Or STFU about your god.
 
Wolverine said:
What do you not understand! Yes the Bible is the literal word of God

the implication is not that God Himself might tempt us, but rather that He is the one guiding our lives and that we desire Him to lead us away from evil influences that might tempt us to sin. Indeed, the request to not lead us into temptation is followed by the phrase "but deliver us from evil."
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If it were the literal word of God, it wouldn't have so many contradictions and anachronisms and errors of geography. It was written for Bronze age people... and underwent a combining of the different stories of Israel and Judah in the 5th century BC.
 
Wolverine said:
Why can't you just admit defeat
As we read in Romans 6:14, “For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Murder is now a capital offense, we are subject to the authorities that God allow to be over us.
also
At about the same time God gave Peter a vision of animals that the Jews regarded as unclean because of the ceremonial law of the Old Testament. The voice from heaven said, "Rise and eat." But Peter protested that they were unclean. And the voice came back with these decisive words in verse 15: "What God has cleansed you must not call common!"
Click to expand...

"For ye are not under the law, but under grace" should not be read that there is no law, for only the wicked are lawless. But, you should read it as because of grace, we are not under the penalty of the law. Jesus did not do away with the law. And, Christians do not deliberately break the law, i.e. sin.

It was never against the law, never a sin, to be ritually "unclean." And, ritual sacrifice made the the ritually unclean ritually clean clean. Jesus's sacrifice makes everything that was unclean ritually clean, and therefor a Christian can't be unclean, even when eating "unclean" meat.
 
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