What kind of "Christian values" do Conservatives want?

StoneByStone said:
I don't hate religious people.....
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You may not call out individuals, but as I've proved several times in reply, your own posts clearly indicate you believe you are superior to people, that if you had dominion over them, you'd force them to be atheists and you gave both Stalin and Mao a pass on both their atheism and their mass murder of believers.
 
"What kind of "Christian values" do Conservatives want?"

As a liberal atheist, here is my impression of the answer to that question:

The kind that:

a) makes them rich,

and

b) makes them feel like that is what God intended for them.

And this is troubling because this view in no way explains why it is not intended for others. I guess it's kind of a 'God loves me but hates you' thing.

And that just makes no sense to me. Even if I accept for the purposes of the discussion, that God exists. Why would this revered figure who is lord of all, loves all, treat different groups so differently? Like there are certain humans who are 'the chosen ones,' and there are others who are 'not chosen?' And this is decided at birth for each individual? It goes against the whole point of the Bible. It makes no sense.
 
WitoldPilecki said:
Everybody's immature but Dutch Uncle, LMFAO.

You come off like an obnoxious low IQ troll.

Nothing mature about that.
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When you have to lie to make your only points, it proves you are either too dumb to know the difference or you're the liar, kid. I forgive you more than those 30 years your senior because they should know better and you don't.
 
Dutch Uncle said:
The physical, mental and spiritual aspects of humanity are separate areas and rarely overlap therefore there is no reason why a person can't be an engineer, scientist or teacher and be very religious. The only time would be a conflict between the two is when someone asserts something in a religious text is true even when proved to be impossible in the physical universe.
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The Old Testament is allegorical and metaphorical. Many Christians and Christian denominations recognize that.

The only real conflict comes with the Young Earth anti-evolutionists, who clearly are unsuited to careers in medicine, biology, cosmology, et al.
 
PoliTalker said:
"What kind of "Christian values" do Conservatives want?"

As a liberal atheist, here is my impression of the answer to that question:

The kind that:

a) makes them rich,

and

b) makes them feel like that is what God intended for them.

And this is troubling because this view in no way explains why it is not intended for others. I guess it's kind of a 'God loves me but hates you' thing.

And that just makes no sense to me. Even if I accept for the purposes of the discussion, that God exists. Why would this revered figure who is lord of all, loves all, treat different groups so differently? Like there are certain humans who are 'the chosen ones,' and there are others who are 'not chosen?' And this is decided at birth for each individual? It goes against the whole point of the Bible. It makes no sense.
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That's not "Christian values", those are Republican values in Christian clothing. Not unusual since their leader isn't a Christian.

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/03/25/most-americans-dont-see-trump-as-religious/
FT_20.03.16_trumpReligion-1.png
 
Cypress said:
The Old Testament is allegorical and metaphorical. Many Christians and Christian denominations recognize that.

The only real conflict comes with the Young Earth anti-evolutionists, who clearly are unsuited to careers in medicine, biology, cosmology, et al.
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Agreed. After all, it was written by desert nomads 1000 years before Alexander the Great, 1300 years before Israel fell to the Assyrians and 2000 years before the Romans took over. If what Moses wrote was true, the first five books of the Bible passed around nomad campfires for 2000 years before Moses wrote them down.

Young Earthers, Evangelicals and others who take the OT literally, only comprise about a third of the population. Even many of them are not so sure about Jonah and the Whale, Six Days, etc.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_United_States
 
Dutch Uncle said:
When you have to lie to make your only points, it proves you are either too dumb to know the difference or you're the liar, kid. I forgive you more than those 30 years your senior because they should know better and you don't.
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You sure talk a lot of sh(t & have very little to say.

What lies are those, exactly?
 
Dutch Uncle said:
You may not call out individuals, but as I've proved several times in reply, your own posts clearly indicate you believe you are superior to people, that if you had dominion over them, you'd force them to be atheists and you gave both Stalin and Mao a pass on both their atheism and their mass murder of believers.
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No, I wouldn't forced anyone to be Atheist. I'd let religion die on its own, which is what happens when the living standards go up.
I said, at least three times, that Stalin and Mao were mass murderers. So you're either lying again or you're a moron. Which is it?
 
Survivorman said:
Who? Except for Appalachia, I can't think of anywhere else in America that comes close to the poverty in India, for example. But the people in Appalachia are mostly white so I'm sure they don't matter to you.
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See, that's what I mean. We have a problem with poverty in America, but instead of admitting we need to do something about it, you're saying it's no big deal because it's worse in India. Yes, it's worse in India, but that's not the point. The point is Capitalism isn't working in our country and we need to do something about it.
And bringing up race is another #deflection. What difference does it makes what race the people in Appalachia are? If they're poor, then we should create policy to help them.
 
Cypress said:
The Old Testament is allegorical and metaphorical. Many Christians and Christian denominations recognize that.

The only real conflict comes with the Young Earth anti-evolutionists, who clearly are unsuited to careers in medicine, biology, cosmology, et al.
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FYI Cypress,we returned to living in the old testament when Israel returned in 1948!
And will live in old testament times till every
Prophecy is fulfilled.
Christian Churches who think the old testament isn't relevant,are sadly mistaken
 
Cypress said:
The Old Testament is allegorical and metaphorical. Many Christians and Christian denominations recognize that.
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I think this is evidence that most religious people know their religion is wrong.
Why assume the Old Testament is metaphorical, but assume the New Testament is literal? Neither claims to be allegorical. The common belief of the day was that the Jewish stories were literal and Jesus never told his disciples they weren't. He even said that the old laws are still to be followed.
The truth is, Christians don't want to practice the insane and violent laws of the Old Testament. So they just accept they're metaphorical, while not doing the same for the New Testament. And this isn't new, the Catholic Church was doing this during the Middle Ages.
 
StoneByStone said:
I think this is evidence that most religious people know their religion is wrong.
Why assume the Old Testament is metaphorical, but assume the New Testament is literal? Neither claims to be allegorical. The common belief of the day was that the Jewish stories were literal and Jesus never told his disciples they weren't. He even said that the old laws are still to be followed.
The truth is, Christians don't want to practice the insane and violent laws of the Old Testament. So they just accept they're metaphorical, while not doing the same for the New Testament. And this isn't new, the Catholic Church was doing this during the Middle Ages.
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Jesus was not a Christian. Jesus was a Jew of the apocalyptic branch of 1st century Judaism.

It was up to Christian theologians, the church fathers, the notable Christian philosophers of late antiquity to develop Christian theology, to interpret what the life of Jesus meant, and to reflect on what it means to be a Christian.

Christian theology does not start and stop with the OT and NT. Christian theology was developed over the course of centuries, through the writings and ecumenical councils of the early Christian fathers .

The life of the historical Jesus is confirmed by multiple independent sources. The OT is not comparable in terms of historical corroboration.

Mythology, allegory, and metaphor are important parts of being a human being. Even today. The Iliad, the Odyssey, Beowulf, Gilgamesh, the OT are some of the most important pieces of world literature ever created, containing much insight on the human condition, the nature of life, the ethical dimensions right-thinking humans should contemplate.

I for one do not begrudge anyone who looks to the OT either as an important work of literature and mythology, or as a source of spiritual truth through allegory.

I do disregard fundamentalist Protestants who view the OT as a literal description of historical events
 
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Cypress said:
Jesus was not a Christian. Jesus was a Jew of the apocalyptic branch of 1st century Judaism.

It was up to Christian theologians, the church fathers, the notable Christian philosophers of late antiquity to develop Christian theology, to interpret what the life of Jesus meant, and what it means to be a Christian.
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But they supposedly based that on Jesus' teachings. So if Jesus, as a Jew, believed that the Jewish myths were literally true, how could any Christian justify saying they are metaphorical? You'd basically be saying that God is wrong about something.

The life of the historical Jesus is confirmed by multiple independent sources. The OT is not conparable in terms of historical corroboration.
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But Christianity also teaches that the myths of the New Testament are literally true. If they accept that Moses parting the sea was just a story, why believe that Jesus literally rose from the dead? This is a huge inconsistency.

I for one do not begrudge anyone who looks to the OT either as an important work literature and mythology, or as a source of spiritual truth through allegory. I do disregard fundamentalist Protestants who view the OT as a literal description of historical events
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I totally agree. What I'm saying is it makes no sense to say the OT is literature and mythology, but the NT is literal history.
It would be like saying the Iliad is literature and mythology, but the Odyssey really happened.
 
StoneByStone said:
See, that's what I mean. We have a problem with poverty in America, but instead of admitting we need to do something about it, you're saying it's no big deal because it's worse in India. Yes, it's worse in India, but that's not the point. The point is Capitalism isn't working in our country and we need to do something about it.
And bringing up race is another #deflection. What difference does it makes what race the people in Appalachia are? If they're poor, then we should create policy to help them.
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Capitalism is working in this country. What isn't working is how the government distorts business by favoring big business over small businesses. That's cronyism/corporatism, not capitalism.

As far as what can be done, I suppose we could replace the current welfare state with a UBI. It would have to be low enough to still encourage people to find work, however.
 
Woko Haram said:
Capitalism is working in this country. What isn't working is how the government distorts business by favoring big business over small businesses. That's cronyism/corporatism, not capitalism.
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Have you ever seen the "but that wasn't real Communism" meme? It's a joke about how whenever you point out that Communism has failed wherever it's tried, Communists reply by saying that wasn't REAL Communism.
The thing is, they're technically right because real Communism wouldn't have a government, but it doesn't matter. The point is whenever a country tries Communism on a large scale, they end up with Authoritarianism. So we can point to the Soviet Union and Maoist China as examples of why large-scale Communism doesn't work.

Well, it's the same thing with Capitalism. Capitalism will ALWAYS lead to Cronyism/Corporatism because that's what happens when we don't have regulations to keep the 1% from getting too powerful. We could say that America doesn't have REAL Capitalism, maybe that's technically true, but it doesn't matter. If we attempt real Capitalism, we end up with an economic oligarchy and lots of poverty.

As far as what can be done, I suppose we could replace the current welfare state with a UBI. It would have to be low enough to still encourage people to find work, however.
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If we had free healthcare and UBI, most people would still have to work to have a good life. As Andrew Yang pointed out, in societies where UBI is introduced, the main people who stop working are students and pregnant women, which is how it should be. Generally speaking, everyone else keeps their jobs.
 
StoneByStone said:
See, that's what I mean. We have a problem with poverty in America, but instead of admitting we need to do something about it, you're saying it's no big deal because it's worse in India. Yes, it's worse in India, but that's not the point. The point is Capitalism isn't working in our country and we need to do something about it.
And bringing up race is another #deflection. What difference does it makes what race the people in Appalachia are? If they're poor, then we should create policy to help them.
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Obama tried to do something about it - he closed down the coal mines where the few who worked made a living. And it got worse. Capitalism works just fine, government is what does not work.

The problems in Appalachia are well known and they have been my entire life. What policy did you have in mind, take away the few jobs that they have? That's what Obama did, that's what Hillary intended to continue had she been elected.
 
Survivorman said:
Obama tried to do something about it - he closed down the coal mines where the few who worked made a living. And it got worse. Capitalism works just fine, government is what does not work.
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If Capitalism worked fine, we wouldn't still have so much poverty. Like you said, we already have the problem before the coal mines were shut down.

The problems in Appalachia are well known and they have been my entire life. What policy did you have in mind, take away the few jobs that they have? That's what Obama did, that's what Hillary intended to continue had she been elected.
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Give people UBI and Medicare for All, simple as that.
 
Dutch Uncle said:
There is a bit of sweeping there. Vietnam was definitely a proxy war for the Communists and the Western Democracies but at its most fundamental, it was a war to reunite their own country.
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A liberation war against colonialism, taken up by the major powers to scare the mugs. Democracies mostly kept out of it., and it didn't work.
 
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