What kind of "Christian values" do Conservatives want?

WitoldPilecki said:
The Mid-West tends to have more Blacks die by gun homicides, while the South tends to have more Whites die by gun homicides.

It could just be that White Southerners are the worst of the Whites, and that Mid-Western Blacks are the worst of the Blacks.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/04/23/health/gun-deaths-in-men-by-state-study/index.html
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Inner city black culture appears to encourage violent crime. Those areas also tend to have stricter gun laws.

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Hello Dutch Uncle,

Dutch Uncle said:
That's not "Christian values", those are Republican values in Christian clothing. Not unusual since their leader isn't a Christian.

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/03/25/most-americans-dont-see-trump-as-religious/
FT_20.03.16_trumpReligion-1.png
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Agreed.
 
StoneByStone said:
But they supposedly based that on Jesus' teachings. So if Jesus, as a Jew, believed that the Jewish myths were literally true, how could any Christian justify saying they are metaphorical? You'd basically be saying that God is wrong about something.



But Christianity also teaches that the myths of the New Testament are literally true. If they accept that Moses parting the sea was just a story, why believe that Jesus literally rose from the dead? This is a huge inconsistency.



I totally agree. What I'm saying is it makes no sense to say the OT is literature and mythology, but the NT is literal history.
It would be like saying the Iliad is literature and mythology, but the Odyssey really happened.
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I do not think you or I are actually theological experts, and broadly speaking do not think we have standing to say Christians are doing Christianity the wrong way. Nor do I think Christians have standing to say aetheists are doing atheism in the wrong way.

The bible is a complex, nebulous, highly nuanced piece of literature. Highly educated people go to seminary school for years and spend lifetimes studying what the life of Jesus really meant and what spiritual truths are in the bible. Since Jesus was neither a Christian, nor claimed he was founding a new religion called Christianity, it took centuries for the church fathers, the early Christian theologians and philosophers to work out for themselves and through ecumenical Council what the life of Jesus really meant and how the Jewish OT related to gentiles..

I think we have a right to challenge those fundamentalist Christian jihadists, and militant in-your-face atheists.

But there is also a time and place for humility, to admit we are not trained biblical scholars, and it is not our place to scold either Christians Jews, Muslims, or atheists that they are not practicing their spirituality or natural philosophy in the right way.
 
StoneByStone said:
See, that's what I mean. We have a problem with poverty in America, but instead of admitting we need to do something about it, you're saying it's no big deal because it's worse in India. Yes, it's worse in India, but that's not the point. The point is Capitalism isn't working in our country and we need to do something about it.
And bringing up race is another #deflection. What difference does it makes what race the people in Appalachia are? If they're poor, then we should create policy to help them.
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Capitalism is doing here what it always does. Unfettered capitalism always results in a few very rich families and a lot of poverty. We aren't regulating our capitalism enough.

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Cypress said:
Jesus was not a Christian. Jesus was a Jew of the apocalyptic branch of 1st century Judaism.

It was up to Christian theologians, the church fathers, the notable Christian philosophers of late antiquity to develop Christian theology, to interpret what the life of Jesus meant, and to reflect on what it means to be a Christian.

Christian theology does not start and stop with the OT and NT. Christian theology was developed over the course of centuries, through the writings and ecumenical councils of the early Christian fathers .

The life of the historical Jesus is confirmed by multiple independent sources. The OT is not comparable in terms of historical corroboration.

Mythology, allegory, and metaphor are important parts of being a human being. Even today. The Iliad, the Odyssey, Beowulf, Gilgamesh, the OT are some of the most important pieces of world literature ever created, containing much insight on the human condition, the nature of life, the ethical dimensions right-thinking humans should contemplate.

I for one do not begrudge anyone who looks to the OT either as an important work of literature and mythology, or as a source of spiritual truth through allegory.

I do disregard fundamentalist Protestants who view the OT as a literal description of historical events
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IOW, Christian theology is a product of man, not God. And the OT is basically a literal description of historical events, enhanced to include 'God'.
And the life of the historical Jesus is only the known through His followers. He is not mentioned in any other context.

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Cypress said:
I do not think you or I are actually theological experts, and broadly speaking do not think we have standing to say Christians are doing Christianity the wrong way. Nor do I think Christians have standing to say aetheists are doing atheism in the wrong way.

The bible is a complex, nebulous, highly nuanced piece of literature. Highly educated people go to seminary school for years and spend lifetimes studying what the life of Jesus really meant and what spiritual truths are in the bible. Since Jesus was neither a Christian, nor claimed he was founding a new religion called Christianity, it took centuries for the church fathers, the early Christian theologians and philosophers to work out for themselves and through ecumenical Council what the life of Jesus really meant and how the Jewish OT related to gentiles..

I think we have a right to challenge those fundamentalist Christian jihadists, and militant in-your-face atheists.

But there is also a time and place for humility, to admit we are not trained biblical scholars, and it is not our place to scold either Christians Jews, Muslims, or atheists that they are not practicing their spirituality or natural philosophy in the right way.
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I think we can reasonably go by what Jesus is recorded as saying, because people were good at remembering back then, if we want to know what 'Christianity' meant to what we tend to call the early Church. It is difficult to fault, as a statement of how humans should behave, though phrased, inevitably, in the 'god'-centred world-view that made sense at the time. Alas, when we look at how 'Christians' behave, we have to take into account the decision to keep the Old Testament as 'Scripture', the remarkable thinking of the highly-Romanised Paul, the power hunger of various bishops, particularly the Bishops of Rome, and the dreadful consequences of Constantine's attempts to shore up the collapsing Empire with a tamed version of the beliefs that were threatening it. Can't we say that Christians go by what Jesus said, the religious by some elements of the rest?
 
Survivorman said:
Obama tried to do something about it - he closed down the coal mines where the few who worked made a living. And it got worse. Capitalism works just fine, government is what does not work.

The problems in Appalachia are well known and they have been my entire life. What policy did you have in mind, take away the few jobs that they have? That's what Obama did, that's what Hillary intended to continue had she been elected.
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The usual ODS. The coal mines shut down because natural gas destroyed the market for coal. Purest capitalism.

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Penderyn said:
A liberation war against colonialism, taken up by the major powers to scare the mugs. Democracies mostly kept out of it., and it didn't work.
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Agreed about the post-colonialism map. Japan's main propaganda during WWII was the Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere to take back Asia for Asians (and run it themselves, of course)

While working on my welding project, I've been listening to several of Dan Carlin's "Hardcore History". Specifically his lengthy series on WWI and the rise of the Japanese empire. Although I can't agree with all of his conclusions or directions of research, I do like listening to him. He researches topics thoroughly and is upfront about not being a historian, just an avid history fan. Good stuff.

Part of it goes with George Santayana's most famous quote so listening to what put the world into WWI, the aftermath, which was a setup for WWII, and how the world was both changing but also being driven by the past (e.g. the Balkans, Germany taking back Czechoslovakia, the Armenian Genocide, the Sykes-Picot agreement, etc).
 
StoneByStone said:
And I'm being called a mass murderer for saying religion is bad for society. Irony!
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For the same reason cultures corrupt are the same reasons religions corrupt.

Balkanization conflict & Imperialism might & control.

But, forcing people to get rid of their culture, or religion is inherently evil.
 
rjhenn said:
Capitalism is doing here what it always does. Unfettered capitalism always results in a few very rich families and a lot of poverty. We aren't regulating our capitalism enough.

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And now the 1% has gotten so rich and powerful that it's much harder to rein them in.
 
Penderyn said:
I think we can reasonably go by what Jesus is recorded as saying, because people were good at remembering back then, if we want to know what 'Christianity' meant to what we tend to call the early Church. It is difficult to fault, as a statement of how humans should behave, though phrased, inevitably, in the 'god'-centred world-view that made sense at the time. Alas, when we look at how 'Christians' behave, we have to take into account the decision to keep the Old Testament as 'Scripture', the remarkable thinking of the highly-Romanised Paul, the power hunger of various bishops, particularly the Bishops of Rome, and the dreadful consequences of Constantine's attempts to shore up the collapsing Empire with a tamed version of the beliefs that were threatening it. Can't we say that Christians go by what Jesus said, the religious by some elements of the rest?
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Historical context is everything.

Some scholars think the early Christians co-opted the Jewish OT to give their new religion a perception of legitimacy, antiquity, and authority. This was important in the Roman world because the Romans would generally tolerate long-standing and ancient religious traditions, while they might otherwise be suspicious of what they might perceive to be small cults of strange, obscure mystics.
 
rjhenn said:
IOW, Christian theology is a product of man, not God. And the OT is basically a literal description of historical events, enhanced to include 'God'.


And the life of the historical Jesus is only the known through His followers. He is not mentioned in any other context.

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The historical Jesus is reported in independent Christian, Jewish, and Roman sources. Archeological evidence confirms the NT account of Pontius Pilate as Roman governor.

But carry on with your Jihad to convice people that Jesus of Nazareth was a hoax, that he never existed.

That is the kind of in-your-face, belligerent behaviour that gives militant atheism a bad name.
 
Cypress said:
I do not think you or I are actually theological experts, and broadly speaking do not think we have standing to say Christians are doing Christianity the wrong way. Nor do I think Christians have standing to say aetheists are doing atheism in the wrong way.
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I don't think one has to be a theological expect to point out the inconsistencies and nonsensical beliefs in religion. We should always examine the argument, regardless of if the person making it is more learned. If a scientist says that there's evidence the world is going to explode on Tuesday, I'm still going to ask to see the evidence.

But there is also a time and place for humility, to admit we are not trained biblical scholars, and it is not our place to scold either Christians Jews, Muslims, or atheists that they are not practicing their spirituality or natural philosophy in the right way.
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TBH, I don't think any Theist even tries to follow their own religion, which I find interesting as it reveals something about human nature and the need for self-deceit. It also has lots of social implications. So while I won't say someone is following their religion the wrong way, I think it's more than fair game to discuss the inconsistencies and their implications.
 
WitoldPilecki said:
For the same reason cultures corrupt are the same reasons religions corrupt.

Balkanization conflict & Imperialism might & control.

But, forcing people to get rid of their culture, or religion is inherently evil.
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Which is part of why I think religion should die on its own. Dutch Uncle is just being an idiot.
 
StoneByStone said:
I don't think one has to be a theological expect to point out the inconsistencies and nonsensical beliefs in religion. We should always examine the argument, regardless of if the person making it is more learned. If a scientist says that there's evidence the world is going to explode on Tuesday, I'm still going to ask to see the evidence.



TBH, I don't think any Theist even tries to follow their own religion, which I find interesting as it reveals something about human nature and the need for self-deceit. It also has lots of social implications. So while I won't say someone is following their religion the wrong way, I think it's more than fair game to discuss the inconsistencies and their implications.
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This seems like an extremely important issue to you.

You should attend a Catholic service and explain to them they are doing Christianity the wrong way.

I am not the person you have to convince. I have never expected any human or any philosophy to be crystal clear and free of all ambiguity or inconsistencies.
 
Cypress said:
This seems like an extremely important issue to you.

You should attend a Catholic service and explain to them they are doing Christianity the wrong way.

I am not the person you have to convince. I have never expected any human or any philosophy to be crystal clear and free of all ambiguity or inconsistencies.
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I doubt many Christians care that they're doing it the wrong way. I'm much more interested in how secular society handles religion.
 
rjhenn said:
IOW, Christian theology is a product of man, not God. And the OT is basically a literal description of historical events, enhanced to include 'God'.
And the life of the historical Jesus is only the known through His followers. He is not mentioned in any other context.

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Have you even read the Bible?
 
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