What kind of "Christian values" do Conservatives want?

Cypress said:
There is no question there is embellishment in the NT. The Gospels in chronological order made an attempt to place progressively more blame on the Jews for Jesus' execution. By the time one reads John, Pontius Pilate is blameless and practically trying to save Jesus from bloodthirsty Jewish mobs.

What I believe many people accept is that there is more than a kernel of historical accuracy in the NT, and the spiritual truths and insights therein speak for themselves, irrespective of anyone who wants to nit pick the historicity of a 2,000 year old collection of books
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Care to cite some scripture on that?

Since Jesus was a Rabbi and all of his initial followers were Jewish, I don't see it. I do see blame placed on the Pharisees, but since, except for the Romans, all of the leaders of Jerusalem were Jewish, that's not the same as putting more "blame the Jews".
 
Dutch Uncle said:
Care to cite some scripture on that?

Since Jesus was a Rabbi and all of his initial followers were Jewish, I don't see it. I do see blame placed on the Pharisees, but since, except for the Romans, all of the leaders of Jerusalem were Jewish, that's not the same as putting more "blame the Jews".
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I think I discussed the topic at length in this thread. There might be another thread I wrote extensively about it

https://www.justplainpolitics.com/s...7Historical-Certainties&p=3207445#post3207445
 
Dutch Uncle said:
Sure, "tease out and interpret", but if the people are illiterate, how do they interpret "ancient literature"? How come the earliest Christian writings different from when the Bible was assembled? As the link below demonstrates, most pre-Council of Nicaea Christian writings were scattershot and spread over 300 years. I'm not saying anyone lied or fabricated things, but after several years, it's a natural human trait to embellish or simply misconstrue verbal communications just like the game "telephone".

http://earlychristianwritings.com/
The purpose of this web site is to set out all of the Christian writings that are believed to have been written in the first and second centuries, as well as a few selected from the early third. I have also included non-Christian documents that may have special bearing on the study of early Christianity in order to make this web site a comprehensive sourcebook.
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I am talking about modern biblical scholarship.

There is zero doubt that the NT, the Annalects of Confucius, the Vendic Vedas and Upanishads, the Bhagavad Gita have all been modified or embellished to one degree or other since they were witten 2,000 years ago.

I do not think it is even a subject open to debate
 
Cypress said:
I think I discussed the topic at length in this thread. There might be another thread I wrote extensively about it

https://www.justplainpolitics.com/s...7Historical-Certainties&p=3207445#post3207445
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Thanks for the link, but as most people know, outside of the Bible and a dubious mention by Josephus, there is no factual documentation Jesus ever lived. I do believe he lived due to the impact he left behind. However, we've all seen legends grow out of proportion to the man or woman being discussed. Custer was an idiot, but for almost a hundred years he was made into a hero larger than life. Same for FDR, JFK, MLK and other historical figures.

Dr. Ehrman's comments, while interesting, are flawed reasoning since they're based upon a single source document: the current Holy Bible.
 
Cypress said:
I am talking about modern biblical scholarship.

There is zero doubt that the NT, the Annalects of Confucius, the Vendic Vedas and Upanishads, the Bhagavad Gita have all been modified or embellished to one degree or other since they were witten 2,000 years ago.

I do not think it is even a subject open to debate
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Tell that to the Evangelicals who think the Earth is only 6000 years old and that God flooded the entire planet for 40 days leaving only Noah and his family alive with all the world's mammals.

There's even a fucking multi-million dollar museum dedicated to Creationism: https://creationmuseum.org/about/
The state-of-the-art Creation Museum allows you to venture through biblical history, stunning exhibits, botanical gardens, planetarium, zoo, zip line adventure course, and much more. This 75,000-square-foot facility has welcomed millions of guests since opening in Petersburg, Kentucky.
 
Dutch Uncle said:
Thanks for the link, but as most people know, outside of the Bible and a dubious mention by Josephus, there is no factual documentation Jesus ever lived. I do believe he lived due to the impact he left behind. However, we've all seen legends grow out of proportion to the man or woman being discussed. Custer was an idiot, but for almost a hundred years he was made into a hero larger than life. Same for FDR, JFK, MLK and other historical figures.

Dr. Ehrman's comments, while interesting, are flawed reasoning since they're based upon a single source document: the current Holy Bible.
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Considering Jesus was basically an itinerant peasant, the fact that multiple independent testimonies in the NT (Pauline epistles, Mathew, Mark, Luke, John), the Jewish historian Josephus, the Roman historian Tacitus all make reference to Jesus is actually pretty remarkable.

No one from antiquity who was basically a peasant of the lower social class has any kind of documentation attesting to their existence. Unless one assumes its all a hoax, the fact that significant testimony exists in the historical record about a peasant from Nazareth is fairly extraordinary
 
Cypress said:
Considering Jesus was basically an itinerant peasant, the fact that multiple independent testimonies in the NT (Pauline epistles, Mathew, Mark, Luke, John), the Jewish historian Josephus, the Roman historian Tacitus all make reference to Jesus is actually pretty remarkable.

No one from antiquity who was basically a peasant of the lower social class has any kind of documentation attesting to their existence. Unless one assumes its all a hoax, the fact that significant testimony exists in the historical record about a peasant from Nazareth is fairly extraordinary
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A short and controversial remark written 60 years after Jesus was executed as noted below. Agreed on the reasoning on why nothing was written by TPTB at the time since Jesus was just seen as another religious nut and anti-Roman running around at the time.

http://www.josephus.org/testimonium.htm
In Rome, in the year 93, Josephus published his lengthy history of the Jews. While discussing the period in which the Jews of Judaea were governed by the Roman procurator Pontius Pilate, Josephus included the following account:


About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he was one who performed surprising deeds and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. He was the Messiah. And when, upon the accusation of the principal men among us, Pilate had condemned him to a cross, those who had first come to love him did not cease. He appeared to them spending a third day restored to life, for the prophets of God had foretold these things and a thousand other marvels about him. And the tribe of the Christians, so called after him, has still to this day not disappeared.
- Jewish Antiquities, 18.3.3 §63
(Based on the translation of Louis H. Feldman, The Loeb Classical Library.)​

Yet this account has been embroiled in controversy since the 17th century. It could not have been written by a Jewish man, say the critics, because it sounds too Christian: it even claims that Jesus was the Messiah (ho christos, the Christ)!
The critics say: this paragraph is not authentic. It was inserted into Josephus' book by a later Christian copyist, probably in the Third or Fourth Century.

The opinion was controversial. A vast literature was produced over the centuries debating the authenticity of the "Testimonium Flavianum", the Testimony of Flavius Josephus.
 
Dutch Uncle said:
A short and controversial remark written 60 years after Jesus was executed as noted below. Agreed on the reasoning on why nothing was written by TPTB at the time since Jesus was just seen as another religious nut and anti-Roman running around at the time.

http://www.josephus.org/testimonium.htm
In Rome, in the year 93, Josephus published his lengthy history of the Jews. While discussing the period in which the Jews of Judaea were governed by the Roman procurator Pontius Pilate, Josephus included the following account:


About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he was one who performed surprising deeds and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. He was the Messiah. And when, upon the accusation of the principal men among us, Pilate had condemned him to a cross, those who had first come to love him did not cease. He appeared to them spending a third day restored to life, for the prophets of God had foretold these things and a thousand other marvels about him. And the tribe of the Christians, so called after him, has still to this day not disappeared.
- Jewish Antiquities, 18.3.3 §63
(Based on the translation of Louis H. Feldman, The Loeb Classical Library.)​

Yet this account has been embroiled in controversy since the 17th century. It could not have been written by a Jewish man, say the critics, because it sounds too Christian: it even claims that Jesus was the Messiah (ho christos, the Christ)!
The critics say: this paragraph is not authentic. It was inserted into Josephus' book by a later Christian copyist, probably in the Third or Fourth Century.

The opinion was controversial. A vast literature was produced over the centuries debating the authenticity of the "Testimonium Flavianum", the Testimony of Flavius Josephus.
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Historical research can never rely on one sole source of information. The fact that there are multiple Christian, Jewish, and Roman sources in the first century reporting the existence of Jesus more than suffices to attest to his existence by the standards of historical scholarship.

It is also worth remembering the NT is not a single book. It is a collection of books written independently by multiple authors from across the eastern Mediterranean, and all written within 20 to 50 years of Jesus death when people who were still alive who should have known him or been acutely aware of him.

In contrast, there is no existing evidence that Jesus was invented as a hoax, and there is no indication in the canon that they are writting fictional stories about someone who never existed.

I believe almost all professional biblical scholars conclude the weight of evidence show there was a historical Jewish teacher in Judea named Jesus. That is the conclusion I defer to.

But you are welcome to your opinion5, I have no vested interest in changing it
 
Dutch Uncle said:
They are no worse the lying pieces of shit who masquerade as different personalities on this forum. Sock puppeteers seek to lie and deceive others. That's what Congress does. Both are equally deplorable, don't you think?

NSFW:
t15134.gif
I once asked Mason's mom "What's the difference between a tire and 365 used condoms?"
She said, "One's a Goodyear, the other is a great year."

Gawd she was so funny! Her son is just a retarded twit. I once asked if she dropped him on his head too many times, but she just looked sad and said "No, he was born that way."
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Off Topic
 
Cypress said:
Historical research can never rely on one sole source of information. The fact that there are multiple Christian, Jewish, and Roman sources in the first century reporting the existence of Jesus more than suffices to attest to his existence by the standards of historical scholarship.

It is also worth remembering the NT is not a single book. It is a collection of books written independently by multiple authors from across the eastern Mediterranean, and all written within 20 to 50 years of Jesus death when people who were still alive who should have known him or been acutely aware of him.

In contrast, there is no existing evidence that Jesus was invented as a hoax, and there is no indication in the canon that they are writting fictional stories about someone who never existed.

I believe almost all professional biblical scholars conclude the weight of evidence show there was a historical Jewish teacher in Judea named Jesus. That is the conclusion I defer to.

But you are welcome to your opinion5, I have no vested interest in changing it
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Please cite the sources since I only know about the Bible and Josephus.

Agreed the story of Jesus is not a hoax or fabrication. At worst, just an embellishment of an impression-making rabbi.
 
Shel said:
Off Topic
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All sock puppeteers are lying scumbags and should never be trusted.

NSFW:
Sooo, Mason's mom and I were rolling around in the hay at a friend's ranch when I asked her "Why is life like a penis?" She said "Because women make it hard!" Gawwwd, she was so funny. Why do you think Mason turned out to be such a shitheel? He owes me an apology and a retraction.

t15134.gif

41hymv.jpg
 
Cypress said:
I am talking about modern biblical scholarship.

There is zero doubt that the NT, the Annalects of Confucius, the Vendic Vedas and Upanishads, the Bhagavad Gita have all been modified or embellished to one degree or other since they were witten 2,000 years ago.

I do not think it is even a subject open to debate
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Especially because myths were usually used for political reasons. We have tons of Fake News today and we have the internet to fact check. We can only imagined how much myths and even historical texts have changed.
 
Dutch Uncle said:
Tell that to the Evangelicals who think the Earth is only 6000 years old and that God flooded the entire planet for 40 days leaving only Noah and his family alive with all the world's mammals.

There's even a fucking multi-million dollar museum dedicated to Creationism: https://creationmuseum.org/about/
The state-of-the-art Creation Museum allows you to venture through biblical history, stunning exhibits, botanical gardens, planetarium, zoo, zip line adventure course, and much more. This 75,000-square-foot facility has welcomed millions of guests since opening in Petersburg, Kentucky.
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You are right. I guess it is not open for debate as far as I an am concerned
 
Dutch Uncle said:
Which goes directly back to my earlier point about where a believer and a scientist start to cross wires.
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Scientist can't prove or disprove the Holy Spirit which is the one thing that kept Christianity around for over 2000years.
Before replying be warned the one unforgivable sin is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit
 
Dutch Uncle said:
Please cite the sources since I only know about the Bible and Josephus.

Agreed the story of Jesus is not a hoax or fabrication. At worst, just an embellishment of an impression-making rabbi.
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The 1st century sources attesting to the historicity of a man known as Jesus of Nazareth I am aware of:

Jewish historian Josephus

Roman historian Tacitus

A passing mention from Roman governor Pliny the younger

And multiple independent 1st century Christian and gentile sources combined and compiled ultimately in the NT canon in the 4th century: Pauline letters, Gospels of Mark, Mathew, Luke, John

I do not think we have that amount of historical documentation for anyone who was essentially a peasant from antiquity. Peasants just didn't get included in historical documentations. That makes it actually fairly remarkable.... unless one assumes numerous people perpetrated a clever and amazingly successful hoax about someone who actually never existed.
 
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Cypress said:
The 1st century sources attesting to the historicity of a man known as Jesus of Nazareth I am aware of:

Jewish historian Josephus

Roman historian Tacitus

A passing mention from Roman governor Pliny the younger

And multiple independent Christian and gentile sources combined and compiled ultimately in the NT canon in the 4th century: Pauline letters, Gospels of Mark, Mathew, Luke, John

I do not think we have that amount of historical documentation for anyone who was essentially a peasant from antiquity. That makes it actually fairly remarkable.... unless obe assumes numerous people perpetrated a clever and amazingly successful hoax about someone who actually never existed.
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Dude, Tacitus wasn't even born until late 50s A.D. and his pal Pliny a few years later. For that matter, Josephus wasn't born until just after the Crucifixion. several decades after the Crucifixion, the name of Jesus was in use, but they cite no evidence other than the name. Certainly not any Jesus quotes.

Don't forget that Jesse James, Butch Cassidy and Elvis have been reported alive and well long after they're "reported" deaths. :)
 
StoneByStone said:
Especially because myths were usually used for political reasons. We have tons of Fake News today and we have the internet to fact check. We can only imagined how much myths and even historical texts have changed.
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A lot of the NT, the Bhagadvad Gita, the Annalects, the Koran, the Upanishads are embellished. We are just going to have to live with the fact that mythology, parable, and allegory are central to what it means to be human.

That does not change the spiritual truths and ethical codes many people acquire from those ancient texts.
 
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