Why do Christians believe in Jesus when He's NOWHERE in the Hebrew Bible?

Concart said:
Yes. God(s) are always anthropomorphized. An all powerful God would care less about us than we care about an amoeba. But ultimately God is a man made construct as are the ideas of good and evil. Our ability to recognize our mortality drives all of it. There is no insect politics. Or religion.
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Agreed. Which is why "enlightened" men like Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin were Deists, believing in a Watchmaker God.

https://www.americanprogress.org/article/the-founding-fathers-religious-wisdom/
The genius of the founding fathers is they understood that Christianity could not only stand on its own but would thrive without being written into the laws and founding documents of the country. In fact, it was likely their own “faith” that led them to this conclusion. Many of the founding fathers—Washington, Jefferson, Franklin, Madison and Monroe—practiced a faith called Deism. Deism is a philosophical belief in human reason as a reliable means of solving social and political problems. Deists believe in a supreme being who created the universe to operate solely by natural laws—and after creation, is absent from the world. This belief in reason over dogma helped guide the founders toward a system of government that respected faiths like Christianity, while purposely isolating both from encroaching on one another so as not to dilute the overall purpose and objectives of either.
 
Cypress said:
I guess I don't understand the question in the thread title. Jesus, Paul, Peter lived centuries after the books of the TaNak were written, why would they be expected to be in the Hebrew bible?
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Lucrative Lies

He's not predicted in the Old Testament. The Messiah predicted there is named Emmanuel. It's much like the Catholics claiming that the New Testament justifies having a Pope.
 
I AM said:
What's that have to do with you?
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Everything. Christians also believe it’s their job to proselytize. And they do that, constantly shoving their beliefs down our collective throats. That said, I’m entitled to my opinion and I’m expressing it.
 
Concart said:
Jesus does not appear in ANY historical texts, outside of the Bible. That's either because his influence during his lifetime was very minimal, or he didn't exist at all.
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Almost all written sources from the first century are lost, destroyed, or missing, so we can't definitely say we know everything about the written sources. It's almost miraculous to have any written sources from the first century, or copies of them.

Jesus was a peasant from a backwater province in the Roman empire. People didn't write about peasants, foot soldiers, or obscure mystics in antiquity. They wrote about emperors, great generals, VIPs. There is almost no Roman or Greek literature written about peasants, farmers, or itinerate mystics.

Pagan historians who reference Jesus are Josephus and Tacitus.

The four Gospel testaments of Jesus were written independently of each other by educated Greek speakers.

Paul almost certainly met Peter and Jesus' brother James providing an additional line of evidence for the historicity of Jesus.

Collectively and all told, Jesus is probably the most well documented Palestinian Jew of antiquity in our surviving source material.
 
Concart said:
Everything. Christians also believe it’s their job to proselytize. And they do that, constantly shoving their beliefs down our collective throats. That said, I’m entitled to my opinion and I’m expressing it.
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I could care less what you believe, but it's not my job to evangelize you.
I only said your opinion isn't fact but an assumption.
 
Cypress said:
Almost all written sources from the first century are lost, destroyed, or missing, so we can't definitely say we know everything about the written sources. It's almost miraculous to have any written sources from the first century, or copies of them.

Jesus was a peasant from a backwater province in the Roman empire. People didn't write about peasants, foot soldiers, or obscure mystics in antiquity. They wrote about emperors, great generals, VIPs. There is almost no Roman or Greek literature written about peasants, farmers, or itinerate mystics.

Pagan historians who reference Jesus are Josephus and Tacitus.

The four Gospel testaments of Jesus were written independently of each other by educated Greek speakers.

Paul almost certainly met Peter and Jesus' brother James providing an additional line of evidence for the historicity of Jesus.

Collectively and all told, Jesus is probably the most well documented Palestinian Jew of antiquity in our surviving source material.
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Excellent job Cypress!
 
Cypress said:
Almost all written sources from the first century are lost, destroyed, or missing, so we can't definitely say we know everything about the written sources. It's almost miraculous to have any written sources from the first century, or copies of them.

Jesus was a peasant from a backwater province in the Roman empire. People didn't write about peasants, foot soldiers, or obscure mystics in antiquity. They wrote about emperors, great generals, VIPs. There is almost no Roman or Greek literature written about peasants, farmers, or itinerate mystics.

Pagan historians who reference Jesus are Josephus and Tacitus.

The four Gospel testaments of Jesus were written independently of each other by educated Greek speakers.

Paul almost certainly met Peter and Jesus' brother James providing an additional line of evidence for the historicity of Jesus.

Collectively and all told, Jesus is probably the most well documented Palestinian Jew of antiquity in our source material.
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I am on the fence. I’ll put it ths way: The Jesus described in the Bible seems more of mythic figure than a man. So whether Jesus actually existed or not his influence comes from biblical text which I am extremely skeptical of. The movement has transcended the man. I do not believe at all in the concept of Jesus as God.
 
I AM said:
From Catch 22 "Without the Spirit man is garbage"
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We are just another of thousands of species of biological life. Heller was agnostic. And he did not capitalize spirit. He was not talking about the Holy Spirit.
 
Concart said:
An excellent question. Let me turn it on its side. Why value human life at all? Thou shalt not kill? Why not? It’s an express ticket to heaven for the victims.
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An eternal question in which I don't have the answer but do believe it goes back to the perception thing.

Is committing mass murder really a crime since, in the end, nothing at all matters? I can see how atheists believe that is true, but I think there is something else going on...something more positive than Nihilism.

https://iep.utm.edu/nihilism/
Nihilism
Nihilism is the belief that all values are baseless and that nothing can be known or communicated. It is often associated with extreme pessimism and a radical skepticism that condemns existence. A true nihilist would believe in nothing, have no loyalties, and no purpose other than, perhaps, an impulse to destroy. While few philosophers would claim to be nihilists, nihilism is most often associated with Friedrich Nietzsche who argued that its corrosive effects would eventually destroy all moral, religious, and metaphysical convictions and precipitate the greatest crisis in human history. In the 20th century, nihilistic themes–epistemological failure, value destruction, and cosmic purposelessness–have preoccupied artists, social critics, and philosophers. Mid-century, for example, the existentialists helped popularize tenets of nihilism in their attempts to blunt its destructive potential. By the end of the century, existential despair as a response to nihilism gave way to an attitude of indifference, often associated with antifoundationalism.
 
Concart said:
I am on the fence. I’ll put it ths way: The Jesus described in the Bible seems more of mythic figure than a man. So whether Jesus actually existed or not his influence comes from biblical text which I am extremely skeptical of. The movement has transcended the man. I do not believe at all in the concept of Jesus as God.
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I agree that the gospels embellish the deeds and actions of Jesus, and outside of Pontius Pilate, there were probably no important authorities in the empire who knew Jesus or paid any attention to him.

You couldn't throw a rock in first century Palestine without hitting a wandering itinerate mystic.

There were probably only a few dozen people who considered Jesus significant during his life.

Embellishment wasn't just practiced by Christian authors, it was a common practice in Roman and Greek written sources.

I think the reason Christianity spread so rapidly after his death is because it had a very radical and appealing message of spiritual equality and salvation.
 
Dutch Uncle said:
An eternal question in which I don't have the answer. Is committing mass murder really a crime since, in the end, nothing at all matters? I can see how atheists believe that is true, but I think there is something else going on...something more positive than Nihilism.

https://iep.utm.edu/nihilism/
Nihilism
Nihilism is the belief that all values are baseless and that nothing can be known or communicated. It is often associated with extreme pessimism and a radical skepticism that condemns existence. A true nihilist would believe in nothing, have no loyalties, and no purpose other than, perhaps, an impulse to destroy. While few philosophers would claim to be nihilists, nihilism is most often associated with Friedrich Nietzsche who argued that its corrosive effects would eventually destroy all moral, religious, and metaphysical convictions and precipitate the greatest crisis in human history. In the 20th century, nihilistic themes–epistemological failure, value destruction, and cosmic purposelessness–have preoccupied artists, social critics, and philosophers. Mid-century, for example, the existentialists helped popularize tenets of nihilism in their attempts to blunt its destructive potential. By the end of the century, existential despair as a response to nihilism gave way to an attitude of indifference, often associated with antifoundationalism.
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I’m am an optimist. I believe that man’s has evolved such that characteristics we consider ‘good’ like empathy, are being selected. We have the capacity to enjoy life. I don need reward upon my death. I’m worm food and fine with that. In many ways recognizing this is your only shot makes you more focused on life. I hit the cosmic lottery. No need for further reward.
 
Cypress said:
I agree that the gospels embellish the deeds and actions of Jesus, and outside of Pontius Pilate, there were probably no important authorities in the empire who knew Jesus or paid any attention to him.

You couldn't throw a rock in first century Palestine without hitting a wandering itinerate mystic.

There were probably only a few dozen people who considered Jesus significant during his life.

Embellishment wasn't just practiced by Christian authors, it was a common practice in Roman and Greek written sources.

I think the reason Christianity spread so rapidly after his death is because it had a very radical and appealing message of spiritual equality and salvation.
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I agree with all of this.
 
Concart said:
We are just another of thousands of species of biological life. Heller was agnostic. And he did not capitalize spirit. He was not talking about the Holy Spirit.
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No he wasn't talking about the Holy Spirit, he was talking about the unique spirit in every man!
It's what separates us from ,a pound of burger at Kroger.
 
Dutch Uncle said:
Brit historians Tom Holland and Dominic Sandbrook would disagree. Yes, it's minimal but they detail a few direct references and a lot of circumstantial evidence from many references. They also blow up the Bethlehem story with facts.

I've listened to several of their other history podcasts and enjoy them. Sometimes they use Brit slang or references which needed to be Googled, but a good podcast for history buffs.


One of two on Youtube:
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I'll try to check this out.

Bart Ehrman a New Testament scholar at University of North Carolina, and a self identified atheist, has written extensively on Jesus and has almost no doubt about the historicity of the man.
 
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