A Real Christian

rjhenn said:
What science demonstrates is a purely mechanistic universe. The only exceptions are random sub atomic reactions. Religion has failed to demonstrate anything.

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Science explains how, not why.

I would never, and have never sugested putting science and theology into a contest using the tools of empirical investigation as first articulated by Francis Bacon 400 years ago.

What I am comfortable with, and do not feel threatened by, is allowing Christian theologians, native American shamans, and Buddhist scholars room to speculate about metaphysical questions. My only concern is when bible thumpers attempt to substitute a supposedly literal interpretation of the bible for the scientific method and genuine historical scholarship
 
Cypress said:
Science explains how, not why.

I would never, and have never sugested putting science and theology into a contest using the tools of empirical investigation as first articulated by Francis Bacon 400 years ago.

What I am comfortable with, and do not feel threatened by, is allowing Christian theologians, native American shamans, and Buddhist scholars room to speculate about metaphysical questions. My only concern is when bible thumpers attempt to substitute a supposedly literal interpretation of the bible for the scientific method and genuine historical scholarship
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Good post. I think that most of us don't care what religion (or no religion) that others follow, as long as they don't insist that everyone else believe the same way.

Religion is a funny thing. It can inspire human beings to transcend their basest impulses, to create glorious art in the name of their god(s), to raise up their brothers and sisters, to truly be the gods' hands here in this life. Conversely it can inspire the most horrific behaviors -- wars, conquest, torture, death.
 
ThatOwlWoman said:
Good post. I think that most of us don't care what religion (or no religion) that others follow, as long as they don't insist that everyone else believe the same way.

Religion is a funny thing. It can inspire human beings to transcend their basest impulses, to create glorious art in the name of their god(s), to raise up their brothers and sisters, to truly be the gods' hands here in this life. Conversely it can inspire the most horrific behaviors -- wars, conquest, torture, death.
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Well done.

And the tools of science were put to use in the holocaust, the development of weapons of mass destruction, chemical warfare in the trenches of WW1.

What I appreciate about science is it provides a rational technique of inquiry allowing us to access a probabilistic knowledge of natural phenomena.

What science will never provide me are answers to the metaphysical questions: what is the nature of justice? What is the nature and essence of virtue? What is the nature and fate of the soul and does it exist?
 
Cypress said:
Well done.

And the tools of science were put to use in the holocaust, the development of weapons of mass destruction, chemical warfare in the trenches of WW1.

What I appreciate about science is it provides a rational technique of inquiry allowing us to access a probabilistic knowledge of natural phenomena.

What science will never provide me are answers to the metaphysical questions: what is the nature of justice? What is the nature and essence of virtue? What is the nature and fate of the soul and does it exist?
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Religion cannot provide answers to those questions either. All it can provide is opinions, guesses, not answers.

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rjhenn said:
Religion cannot provide answers to those questions either. All it can provide is opinions, guesses, not answers.

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It does not provide answers to metaphysical questins for you.. It may for others

Metaphysical questions are beyond the reach of the scientific method. There is no experiment, no empirically derived formula that can explain how to live a well-lived ethical life; there is no instrument that can measure what the nature of justice and virtue is.

Unless you are suggesting we throw out 2,500 years of human intellectual history, from Plato to Confucius to Thomas Aquinas to Rene Descartes to John Locke to Frederick Nitzche, then contemplation and speculation is a part and parcel of the experience of being human and remains so to this day
 
Cypress said:
It does not provide answers to metaphysical questins for you.. It may for others

Metaphysical questions are beyond the reach of the scientific method. There is no experiment, no empirically derived formula that can explain how to live a well-lived ethical life; there is no instrument that can measure what the nature of justice and virtue is.

Unless you are suggesting we throw out 2,500 years of human intellectual history, from Plato to Confucius to Thomas Aquinas to Rene Descartes to John Locke to Frederick Nitzche, then contemplation and speculation is a part and parcel of the experience of being human and remains so to this day
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Agree. As much as I -- the daughter of, wife of, and mother of scientists -- love science and empirical knowledge, a world where there was nothing else would be bleak. There is a lot of joy to be found in pondering the mysteries of life and the spiritual realm, and the nature of our own existence and relationship to our fellow passengers. Being in the company of truly spiritual people is also a joy, no matter whether they belong to some organized faith system or are walking their own path.
 
ThatOwlWoman said:
Agree. As much as I -- the daughter of, wife of, and mother of scientists -- love science and empirical knowledge, a world where there was nothing else would be bleak. There is a lot of joy to be found in pondering the mysteries of life and the spiritual realm, and the nature of our own existence and relationship to our fellow passengers. Being in the company of truly spiritual people is also a joy, no matter whether they belong to some organized faith system or are walking their own path.
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Nicely done indeed.

My Mother was a philosophy student and she always helped keep me grounded that the sum of how humans experience our lives includes so much more than inductive emperical reasoning. She was a good check on me that there are limitations of the scientific method
 
Cypress said:
It does not provide answers to metaphysical questins for you.. It may for others

Metaphysical questions are beyond the reach of the scientific method. There is no experiment, no empirically derived formula that can explain how to live a well-lived ethical life; there is no instrument that can measure what the nature of justice and virtue is.

Unless you are suggesting we throw out 2,500 years of human intellectual history, from Plato to Confucius to Thomas Aquinas to Rene Descartes to John Locke to Frederick Nitzche, then contemplation and speculation is a part and parcel of the experience of being human and remains so to this day
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Again, it's all opinions and guesses, speculation. There are no actual answers to be found in the area of metaphysics.

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rjhenn said:
Again, it's all opinions and guesses, speculation. There are no actual answers to be found in the area of metaphysics.

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Well we have made progress here.

Half a dozen exchanges ago you said religious faith and belief was delusional. Now we have dialed it back to the terrain of speculation and conjecture....

That is progress. There is nothing wrong with conjecture. Especially since the scientific method is not suited to answering or addressing questions of metaphysics, ethics, or epistemology.
 
Cypress said:
Well we have made progress here.

Half a dozen exchanges ago you said religious faith and belief was delusional. Now we have dialed it back to the terrain of speculation and conjecture....

That is progress. There is nothing wrong with conjecture. Especially since the scientific method is not suited to answering or addressing questions of metaphysics, ethics, or epistemology.
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Placing your faith in conjecture as if it was reality is still delusional.

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rjhenn said:
Placing your faith in conjecture as if it was reality is still delusional.

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So anyone who contemplates, speculates, holds an opinion, engages in conjecture on how to live an ethical life, on what constitutes justice, on whether or not we have a soul is being delusional ?
 
Believing Jonah literally lived in the belly of a whale is delusional

Metaphysical, ethical, and epistemological questions and speculations that arise out of the spiritual literature, parables, and metaphors in all human faith traditions is perfectly reasonable to me, and not remotely akin to clinical delusion
 
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rjhenn said:
Again, it's all opinions and guesses, speculation. There are no actual answers to be found in the area of metaphysics.
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There are answers, but they vary on who is speaking. That's not to say that they have no worth.

Why do you suppose we humans seem to have an innate longing to believe in something that we can't measure, quantify, or even see?
 
My happiest memories are of regularly, sometime round Christmas, being allowed to join my Vicar-Father, a neighbouring parson and their Friend Dafydd Thomas, our Communist doctor (and friend of Paul Robeson, our hero), who was an atheist ex-theology student working for the Miners' Union. All three were Marxists and all three knew their theology, and I knew as a kid that I wanted no better than to be able to think like that. When I met science it was rather a disappointment - nothing wrong with it, but lacking in excitement or conviction, I feel. As someone who doesn't define himself in terms of religion but finds the likelihood of gods not great, and a Marxist who has grave doubts about what should be current practice, I have no doubt that Jesus was a true socialist whose suggestions for individual conduct I wholly approve, I miss all the conviction that used to be around and hugely approve those who try to act in the ways suggested in the Gospels and Acts. Like the Earl of Havana, I have never heard of the bloke you're discussing, but wish his supporters well.
 
Penderyn said:
My happiest memories are of regularly, sometime round Christmas, being allowed to join my Vicar-Father, a neighbouring parson and their Friend Dafydd Thomas, our Communist doctor (and friend of Paul Robeson, our hero), who was an atheist ex-theology student working for the Miners' Union. All three were Marxists and all three knew their theology, and I knew as a kid that I wanted no better than to be able to think like that. When I met science it was rather a disappointment - nothing wrong with it, but lacking in excitement or conviction, I feel. As someone who doesn't define himself in terms of religion but finds the likelihood of gods not great, and a Marxist who has grave doubts about what should be current practice, I have no doubt that Jesus was a true socialist whose suggestions for individual conduct I wholly approve, I miss all the conviction that used to be around and hugely approve those who try to act in the ways suggested in the Gospels and Acts. Like the Earl of Havana, I have never heard of the bloke you're discussing, but wish his supporters well.
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I don't see how it is possible to follow Christ and be an American conservative. (I qualified that since I don't have any knowledge of how your flavor of conservatives behave/believe.) Too much worship of mammon and money, of military and military weaponry, of might makes right. Far too little compassion, courage, morality. Massive failure to actually emulate Christ in word and deed. Any more, apparently just claiming to be Xtian gets you into heaven; no evidence necessary!
 
Cypress said:
So anyone who contemplates, speculates, holds an opinion, engages in conjecture on how to live an ethical life, on what constitutes justice, on whether or not we have a soul is being delusional ?
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If they think that they are dealing with actual answers instead of simply opinions, then yes, they're delusional.

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Cypress said:
Believing Jonah literally lived in the belly of a whale is delusional

Metaphysical, ethical, and epistemological questions and speculations that arise out of the spiritual literature, parables, and metaphors in all human faith traditions is perfectly reasonable to me, and not remotely akin to clinical delusion
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It's delusional to see any of that as reality, and quite dangerous delusions. Those who see those speculations as reality tend to try and force everyone around them to agree, usually with horrific results.

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ThatOwlWoman said:
There are answers, but they vary on who is speaking. That's not to say that they have no worth.

Why do you suppose we humans seem to have an innate longing to believe in something that we can't measure, quantify, or even see?
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It's a defect in our intellectual development.

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ThatOwlWoman said:
I don't see how it is possible to follow Christ and be an American conservative. (I qualified that since I don't have any knowledge of how your flavor of conservatives behave/believe.) Too much worship of mammon and money, of military and military weaponry, of might makes right. Far too little compassion, courage, morality. Massive failure to actually emulate Christ in word and deed. Any more, apparently just claiming to be Xtian gets you into heaven; no evidence necessary!
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Marxism doesn't seem to work either. Humans aren't advanced enough to thrive in a Marxist society.

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