Atheist versus former atheist debate

[Into the Night]

One of the questions discussed is whether we need Christianity, whether or not there is an afterlife.

Richard Dawkins himself although atheist, claims to be a cultural Christian because his ethos, his values, his cultural milieu originates from the immersion of western civilization into Christianity for 2000 years, and that the west itself would be unrecognizable without the Christian tradition.

Richard Dawkins is not an atheist, Sybil. The Church of No God is a fundamentalist style religion.

 

[Into the Night]

It helps some people. Others don’t need it.
When you say “we”, who specifically are you referring to?

He may be referring to his socks, but I believe this is more of the Marxist 'we'.

 

[Into the Night]

The way American and British atheists talk, it's not even really about whether nor not a deity exists, strictly speaking.

They just oppose all aspects of religion. There should be a word for someone "who just doesn't like Christianity", rather than the more limiting term 'atheist".

If you listen to Richard Dawkins, most of the time he is just complaining about some story or parable from the Old Testament or New Testament, and how it doesn't comport with the scientific method.

Science is not religion, Sybil. Richard Dawkins is not an atheist.

 

[Into the Night]

The Protestant reformation and Protestant doctrine unleashed the forces of capitalism, individualism, democracy, even if only indirectly or even unintentionally.

This was one major factor, yes.

The Catholic Church established the first universities, and established the seven liberal arts as a course of education.

No, the Greeks did, although the Catholic church did build some universities following it, after finally accepting it.

For centuries, Monasteries were the only places of literacy and learning in western Europe.

No. They were places of illiteracy. Literacy and learning didn't occur in Europe until Greek material was rescued and translated into Latin.

The Church emphasized the study of mathematics and astronomy, and was the only institution in western Europe to do so for centuries..

No. They REJECTED both.

For centuries, the Church was the only patron of art, science, and learning.

No. The Church was arguing about how many angles could fit on the head of a pin, imprisoning Galileo in his home, and generally fought science and mathematics.

The Church in western Europe resurrected and recovered the "lost" logic, math, and science of the ancient Greeks.

No. Traders did.

 

[Into the Night]

Science*, capitalism, individualism, and democracy didn't develop in the Buddhist civilizations of southeast and east Asia. I don't think it is completely by accident that those events and practices developed almost uniquely during the history of western civilization.


* China had technology, but not the empirical scientific method of the West

Maybe the tyranny had something to do with it. You know, the tyranny that DEMOCRATS WANT!

 

[Into the Night]

Ritual child sacrifice made perfect sense to many Bronze age societies, as did killing twins, abandoning weak babies, committing infanticide of female babies.

That's why I use the analogy of a fish not realizing it's swimming in water. The Judeo-Christian ethos has permeated western civilization for so long, over 2500 years, that you can't imagine the cultural ethos being significantly different.

And now you support abortion, or the killing of offspring for the sake of convenience.

 

[anonymoose]

He may be referring to his socks, but I believe this is more of the Marxist 'we'.

Or to BowelWoman and Dutch ?

 

[Cypress]

No, the Greeks did, although the Catholic church did build some universities following it, after finally accepting it.

The first universities in Western Europe were established by the Catholic Church. That is an irrefutable historical fact.
The first universities in North America, like Harvard, Yale, and Princeton were established by Protestant denominations.

No. They were places of illiteracy. Literacy and learning didn't occur in Europe until Greek material was rescued and translated into Latin.

During the Early Middle Ages, monasteries were islands of literacy in western Europe after the collapse of the western Roman Empire -- because scribes and monks had to be trained to make copies of the Bible. The classical Greek literature was recovered in Western Europe largely by Christian theologians searching for and recovering Greek texts. The Eastern Orthodox Church in the Byzantine Empire maintained and preserved a significant amount of the ancient Greek literature. That is how a lot of the classical Greek literature found its way to Italy after the fall of Constantinople.

No. The Church was arguing about how many angles could fit on the head of a pin, imprisoning Galileo in his home, and generally fought science and mathematics.

I'm no fan of the Catholic Church, but I am a fan of getting the facts right.
The angels on a pinhead is a myth. That is not what Medieval philosophers were discussing. The seven liberal arts, which included mathematics, astronomy, geometry, grammar, rhetoric, music, logic was the curriculum taught in the monasteries and the Catholic universities. It is a historical fact that Charlamagne the Great wanted the monks, clerics, and theologians to be educated. Protestants promoted literacy because in Protestant doctrine, the laity is supposed to be able to read their own bibles.

 

[Litmus]

Nor can any of us expect to personally see it occur again.
A semi-literate society glued to its mobile phones is the modern equivalent to the last dark age.
Then, it was "Bring out your dead."
Now it's, "Why is everybody fucking brain dead?"

only if the totalitarianis succeed in censoring the internet totally.

why don't you join the side of good instead of lamenting evil?

is it more noble to oppose troubles and thus end them?

or are you just gonna stick your head in your sleepy ass?

 

[Into the Night]

The first universities in Western Europe were established by the Catholic Church.

Nope. They were established by the students themselves.

That is an irrefutable historical fact.

Go learn what 'fact' means. Denying history is not history.

The first universities in North America, like Harvard, Yale, and Princeton were established by Protestant denominations.

Nope. Harvard was founded by the legislative action.

During the Early Middle Ages, monasteries were islands of literacy in western Europe

No. Monasteries isolated themselves and became islands of illiteracy that lasted well into the Renaissance.

after the collapse of the western Roman Empire

You obviously ignore the advances in science and mathematics during the so-called 'Dark Ages'.

-- because scribes and monks had to be trained to make copies of the Bible.

Copying is not literacy, Sybil.

The classical Greek literature was recovered in Western Europe largely by Christian theologians searching for and recovering Greek texts.

Nope. It was by traders. The Catholic church rejected the concepts presented in those texts.

The Eastern Orthodox Church in the Byzantine Empire maintained and preserved a significant amount of the ancient Greek literature. That is how a lot of the classical Greek literature found its way to Italy after the fall of Constantinople.

It wasn't ancient, Sybil.

I'm no fan of the Catholic Church, but I am a fan of getting the facts right.

Learn what 'fact' means, Sybil. Buzzword fallacy (again).

The angels on a pinhead is a myth.

No myth, Sybil.

That is not what Medieval philosophers were discussing.

Correct. The Catholic church was.

The seven liberal arts, which included mathematics, astronomy, geometry, grammar, rhetoric, music, logic was the curriculum taught in the monasteries and the Catholic universities.

Which came from Greek teachings, Sybil.

It is a historical fact that Charlamagne the Great wanted the monks, clerics, and theologians to be educated.

Learn what 'fact' means, Sybil. Buzzword fallacy.
Charlemagne (you misspelled it) wanted EVERYONE to be educated, Sybil.

Protestants promoted literacy because in Protestant doctrine, the laity is supposed to be able to read their own bibles.

So? What has this to do with Charlemagne?

For claiming to be literate, Sybil, you have:

Rejected the history of Europe and of the United States.
Rejected the Bible.
Rejected the Constitution of the United States and all State constitutions.
Rejected the 1st and 2nd laws of thermodynamics and the Stefan-Boltzmann law.
Rejected statistical, probability, random numbers, and algebra in mathematics.
Rejected chemistry.
Rejected virology.
Rejected logic.
Rejected engineering practices.
Continue to have difficulty with spelling, grammar, and the English language.

 

[Litmus]

The first universities in Western Europe were established by the Catholic Church. That is an irrefutable historical fact.
The first universities in North America, like Harvard, Yale, and Princeton were established by Protestant denominations.

During the Early Middle Ages, monasteries were islands of literacy in western Europe after the collapse of the western Roman Empire -- because scribes and monks had to be trained to make copies of the Bible. The classical Greek literature was recovered in Western Europe largely by Christian theologians searching for and recovering Greek texts. The Eastern Orthodox Church in the Byzantine Empire maintained and preserved a significant amount of the ancient Greek literature. That is how a lot of the classical Greek literature found its way to Italy after the fall of Constantinople.

I'm no fan of the Catholic Church, but I am a fan of getting the facts right.
The angels on a pinhead is a myth. That is not what Medieval philosophers were discussing. The seven liberal arts, which included mathematics, astronomy, geometry, grammar, rhetoric, music, logic was the curriculum taught in the monasteries and the Catholic universities. It is a historical fact that Charlamagne the Great wanted the monks, clerics, and theologians to be educated. Protestants promoted literacy because in Protestant doctrine, the laity is supposed to be able to read their own bibles.

but it was a big fiight with people dying to get the Bible printed in the "vulgate".

you're lying again, mason.

the catholic Church is a satanic vestigiality of the Roman empire who are all child molesters and totalitarians.

 

[Cypress]

Nope. They were established by the students themselves.

Go learn what 'fact' means. Denying history is not history.

Nope. Harvard was founded by the legislative action.

No. Monasteries isolated themselves and became islands of illiteracy that lasted well into the Renaissance.

You obviously ignore the advances in science and mathematics during the so-called 'Dark Ages'.

Copying is not literacy, Sybil.

Nope. It was by traders. The Catholic church rejected the concepts presented in those texts.

It wasn't ancient, Sybil.

Learn what 'fact' means, Sybil. Buzzword fallacy (again).

No myth, Sybil.

Correct. The Catholic church was.

Which came from Greek teachings, Sybil.

Learn what 'fact' means, Sybil. Buzzword fallacy.
Charlemagne (you misspelled it) wanted EVERYONE to be educated, Sybil.

So? What has this to do with Charlemagne?

For claiming to be literate, Sybil, you have:

Rejected the history of Europe and of the United States.
Rejected the Bible.
Rejected the Constitution of the United States and all State constitutions.
Rejected the 1st and 2nd laws of thermodynamics and the Stefan-Boltzmann law.
Rejected statistical, probability, random numbers, and algebra in mathematics.
Rejected chemistry.
Rejected virology.
Rejected logic.
Rejected engineering practices.
Continue to have difficulty with spelling, grammar, and the English language.

You obviously haven't read and books or taken any classes on the history of Medieval Europe.

 

[Cypress]

but it was a big fiight with people dying to get the Bible printed in the "vulgate".

you're lying again, mason.

the catholic Church is a satanic vestigiality of the Roman empire who are all child molesters and totalitarians.

You're free to delude yourself into believing Christianity did not play an elemental role in the values, literature, art, knowledge, science, ethos, philosophy of western civilization's history.

 

[Litmus]

You're free to delude yourself into believing Christianity did not play an elemental role in the values, literature, art, knowledge, science, ethos, philosophy of western civilization's history.

Im not saying that.

I'm saying morality is not unique to Christianity, and is universal.

 

[EdwinA]

There is.
Religion is natural to humans.
I think Buddhism is probably better though.

A lot of evidence suggests it's hard wired into our psyches,

As for Buddhism, it's the ultimate expression of narcissism in practice. Christianity is by far the most successful paradigm; even Hegel believed it to be the most advanced form of theology. It was so revolutionary because it appealed to basic human experiences.

Hegel's Interpretation of the Religions of the World - Reading Religion

In his Lectures on the Philosophy of Religion, Hegel treats the religions of the world under the rubric "the determinate religion." This is a part of his c...

readingreligion.org

Another atheist, F.A, Hayek, writes on the failures of 'rational constructivism' to do better than Christian traditions in stabilizing culture and govt institutions, and that it is probably a bad idea to strip Christianity out and trying to substitute what passes for 'rationalism' in its place, given how influential psuedo-intellectual faddism is on politics and economics.

The Fatal Conceit - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The same errors Communists make is also the same ones corporatists on the right make as well, that technocracy is better than other methods and we should all let monopolies and cartels run free, i.e. 'too big to fail' scams. We can see how well Communists and giant corporations get along via the corporate build up of Red China and labor racketeering around the globe. They are two peas in a pod.

 

[Cypress]

I'm saying morality is not unique to Christianity, and is universal.

That wasn't the question I was asked. I was told that the ethos of Judeo-Christianty is just 'common sense' that was always practiced by humans since time immemorial. This is clearly false.

 

[Litmus]

That wasn't the question I was asked. I was told that the ethos of Judeo-Christianty is just 'common sense' that was always practiced by humans since time immemorial. This is clearly false.

yes. that's basic morality.

it is correct.

 

[Into the Night]

You obviously haven't read and books or taken any classes on the history of Medieval Europe.

Argument of the Stone fallacy. That won't work, Sybil.

 

[Into the Night]

You're free to delude yourself into believing Christianity did not play an elemental role in the values, literature, art, knowledge, science, ethos, philosophy of western civilization's history.

Mantra 30a. Don't try to assign values you made up to people and condemn them for it, Sybil!

 

[Into the Night]

Im not saying that.

I'm saying morality is not unique to Christianity,

This part is true.

and is universal.

Since different religions and beliefs have different ideas about 'morality', what makes this morality universal?