Atheist versus former atheist debate

[Litmus]

This part is true.

Since different religions and beliefs have different ideas about 'morality', what makes this morality universal?

commonalities of not lying, not stealing, not welching on agreements. no unjustified violence.

etc....

 

[Litmus]

why is it so objectionable to say morality is rational?

is it it just power players acting immorally wanting to pretend they can whitewash their shit with fancy talk?

no ma'am.

 

[Into the Night]

A lot of evidence suggests it's hard wired into our psyches,

Fine.

As for Buddhism, it's the ultimate expression of narcissism in practice. Christianity is by far the most successful paradigm; even Hegel believed it to be the most advanced form of theology. It was so revolutionary because it appealed to basic human experiences.

An interesting point.

Another atheist, F.A, Hayek,

Hayek is not an atheist.

writes on the failures of 'rational constructivism' to do better than Christian traditions in stabilizing culture and govt institutions, and that it is probably a bad idea to strip Christianity out and trying to substitute what passes for 'rationalism' in its place, given how influential psuedo-intellectual faddism is on politics and economics.

The Fatal Conceit - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

At least he admits it to some degree.

The same errors Communists make is also the same ones corporatists on the right make as well, that technocracy is better than other methods and we should all let monopolies and cartels run free, i.e. 'too big to fail' scams.

Too Big to Fail scams are government supported. THAT is communism. Corporations, even large corporations, are NOT communism; even if they whine to government for money or whine to the government to enforce a monopoly.
(why is there only one monopolies commission?)

Monopolies are unstable. They are self destructive. You don't need government here manipulating markets (fascism). All it takes to break a monopoly is for some little guy to show up with a new or more efficient idea. The old dinosaur can't maneuver fast enough in the market or even realize there is a threat until it's too late. A recent example: the computer industry, once dominated by IBM mainframes. Now there's a computer on every desk and in every modern car (several, in fact). Then there's the Big Three automotive companies. With the introduction of cheaper and better built foreign cars, that's a distant memory now.

There's always some little guy to come around and shoot your kneecaps off.

We can see how well Communists and giant corporations get along via the corporate build up of Red China and labor racketeering around the globe. They are two peas in a pod.

Okay...let's talk about this 'racketeering' around the globe and China.

China primarily has communism. It also has a lot of fascism. It ALSO has capitalism, just like any other nation on Earth. These are NOT forms of government. The oligarchy (which IS a form of government!) in China wants to implement communism and fascism. These are both forms of socialism. ALL socialism is based on theft of wealth. It cannot exist without capitalism nearby to steal wealth from. Capitalism is the ONLY economic system that creates wealth. It needs no government to function or to 'manage' it (which is really just fascism and communism and not capitalism at all).

Capitalism has been argued to be the only economic system (and quite rightly so) in existence. Theft by fascism, communism, or slavery, is not an economic system. It is theft.

As to the so-called 'racketeering'. That's government at work, not corporations.

Capitalism is open to anyone. Anyone can play, rich or poor. It is the only way to lift the poor from their plight. All you need is initiative and drive. There is no slavery. There is no government needed to tell you what you can make or how to make it, who you can hire, or who you must fire. Market forces (including price discovery) determine your success.

Sure...anyone selling anything wants the highest price possible. Anyone buying anything wants the lowest price possible.
Somewhere in the middle is the price they agree upon. Only then does the deal take place. Until then, no deal.

Cartels? They can't last for the same reason a monopoly is naturally self destructive. There's always some renegade that won't conform to the cartel and beat them at their own game. Such things as cartels and monopolies can ONLY continue to exist with government help.

Government is not the solution to the problem. Government IS the problem. --Ronald Reagan

 

[Into the Night]

That wasn't the question I was asked. I was told that the ethos of Judeo-Christianty is just 'common sense' that was always practiced by humans since time immemorial. This is clearly false.

Oh? The Bible describes an Adam and Eve, and how God placed them in the Garden of Eden. Does that go back far enough, Sybil?

 

[Into the Night]

commonalities of not lying, not stealing, not welching on agreements. no unjustified violence.

etc....

Yet...as you have already pointed out, the Catholic church has already done all of these; yet they claim a set of morals...obviously different than yours or mine.

So the question remains. What is universal about morals?

 

[Into the Night]

why is it so objectionable to say morality is rational?

It isn't. Morality is quite rational.

is it it just power players acting immorally wanting to pretend they can whitewash their shit with fancy talk?

An interesting way to put it. Even though the Catholic church, for example, claims a morality...due to the way their power players (leaders) lie, steal, and harm people; that would label them as 'immoral', despite their claim.

If this is true, who defines 'The Morals'? You? Me? Trump? Kamala? And on what basis?

 

[Cypress]

Oh? The Bible describes an Adam and Eve, and how God placed them in the Garden of Eden. Does that go back far enough, Sybil?

Genesis is supposed to be primordial history. I don't remember any developed and organized moral law in Genesis.

The lesson here is that you should at least be familiar with the bible and with Medieval European history before you open your pie hole and divulge your ignorance on this thread.

 

[Litmus]

It isn't. Morality is quite rational.

An interesting way to put it. Even though the Catholic church, for example, claims a morality...due to the way their power players (leaders) lie, steal, and harm people; that would label them as 'immoral', despite their claim.

If this is true, who defines 'The Morals'? You? Me? Trump? Kamala? And on what basis?

there are moral principles taught within the catholic church, and there are good people in the organization. just not at the top. sadly.

we could easily sift through the organization personnel and doctrine and say what is corrupt and for power and what is a legitimate concept for living together morally.

morality is a set of behaviors and attitudes that facilitate voluntary, cooperative, and mutually beneficial relationships.

simple put, it's building a hight trust society so we can stop being wary of each other and work together.

morality is the human innvation started in our mammalian caregiving/ bonding ancestral lines.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Genesis is supposed to be primordial history. I don't remember any developed and organized moral law in Genesis.

The lesson here is that you should at least be familiar with the bible and with Medieval European history before you open your pie hole and divulge your ignorance on this thread.

IIRC, the only rule was "don't eat from the Tree of Knowledge". I don't see that as being a hard rule like some say but more of a warning like telling a child, "Don't touch the stove or you'll get burned".

The Lawgiver was Moses who came about 2500 years after Adam, came down the mountain with the Fifteen Ten Commandments.

 

[Into the Night]

Genesis is supposed to be primordial history. I don't remember any developed and organized moral law in Genesis.

No? God gave extremely clear commands. What is 'organized' or 'developed' about morals. There is no such thing as 'moral law'.

The lesson here is that you should at least be familiar with the bible and with Medieval European history before you open your pie hole and divulge your ignorance on this thread.

So you obviously ignore your own 'lesson', Sybil.

 

[Into the Night]

there are moral principles taught within the catholic church, and there are good people in the organization. just not at the top. sadly.

Quite true. I am referring to the leadership though, which attempts to declare what is 'moral'.

we could easily sift through the organization personnel and doctrine and say what is corrupt and for power and what is a legitimate concept for living together morally.

morality is a set of behaviors and attitudes that facilitate voluntary, cooperative, and mutually beneficial relationships.

simple put, it's building a hight trust society so we can stop being wary of each other and work together.

morality is the human innvation started in our mammalian caregiving/ bonding ancestral lines.

So, as you define 'moral', it is based on trust? Not a bad argument!

 

[Into the Night]

IIRC, the only rule was "don't eat from the Tree of Knowledge". I don't see that as being a hard rule

It was a hard rule, Sybil. Given by God.

like some say but more of a warning like telling a child, "Don't touch the stove or you'll get burned".

And you don't consider such a warning a hard rule???

The Lawgiver was Moses who came about 2500 years after Adam, came down the mountain with the Fifteen Ten Commandments.

Who wrote the Ten Commandments, Sybil? The lawgiver was God.

 

[Litmus]

Quite true. I am referring to the leadership though, which attempts to declare what is 'moral'.

So, as you define 'moral', it is based on trust? Not a bad argument!

the leadership ATTEMPTS to declare what is moral, but it is written down quite clearly.

the leadership would have morality mean conformity and obedience, and that's a common mistake that occurs often in the organizations of men.

 

[Cypress]

No? God gave extremely clear commands.

^^An intentionally evasive answer. List and describe precisely the organized moral commands in Genesis Book 1 that that have informed and guided western ethical values for 2000 years.

What is 'organized' or 'developed' about morals.

It's hard to believe you have never heard of the Decalogue, or the Sermon on the Mount. The moral law in the Christian and Hewbrew Bibles are highly organized and articulated.

There is no such thing as 'moral law'.

But you knew exactly what I was talking about when you read it, so now you are just tap dancing and diverting. Jesus, Paul, and theologians routinely referred to Torah as the Law.

So you obviously ignore your own 'lesson', Sybil.

This post and the prior ones clearly demonstrate you know almost nothing about the Bible or Medieval European history. You should keep your pie hole shut on topics you are ignorant of, before confirming that ignorance in public.

 

[IBDaMann]

Dolphins, crows, and Orcas are highly intelligent.

Why do you say this? What constitutes "highly" intelligent? What are the levels of intelligence? How does one measure a particular intelligence level?

I have noticed that within the one species you credit for the capacity to contemplate physics, i.e. humans, there are nonetheless people so unintelligent as to believe in Global Warming, Climate Change and greenhouse effect. How do you account for differences in intraspecies intelligence levels? Are orcas intelligent enough to have "special ed" for the retarded orcas?

 

[Cypress]

IIRC, the only rule was "don't eat from the Tree of Knowledge". I don't see that as being a hard rule like some say but more of a warning like telling a child, "Don't touch the stove or you'll get burned".

The Lawgiver was Moses who came about 2500 years after Adam, came down the mountain with the Fifteen Ten Commandments.

LOL
Right, 'don't eat from the tree of knowledge' is not an organized or comprehensive moral law that has guided western ethical values for centuries.

 

[Into the Night]

the leadership ATTEMPTS to declare what is moral, but it is written down quite clearly.

the leadership would have morality mean conformity and obedience, and that's a common mistake that occurs often in the organizations of men.

Written down? Where? Do you now redefine 'morality' as that which is described in the Bible?
Previously, you defined 'morality' as built on trust.

Do you wish to combine these? it seems reasonable, since the teachings of God and Christ are about trust and freedom of choice.

That being the case, the leadership of the Catholic church by this definition is immoral.

 

[Into the Night]

^^An intentionally evasive answer.

God does not evade, Sybil.

List and describe precisely the organized moral commands in Genesis Book 1 that that have informed and guided western ethical values for 2000 years.

Already have. RQAA.

It's hard to believe you have never heard of the Decalogue, or the Sermon on the Mount.

I never said I didn't, Sybil.

The moral law in the Christian and Hewbrew Bibles are highly organized and articulated.

Morals isn't a law, Sybil.

But you knew exactly what I was talking about when you read it,

No, you rarely make any sense of any kind, Sybil.

so now you are just tap dancing and diverting.

You are describing yourself again.

Jesus, Paul, and theologians routinely referred to Torah as the Law.

Which is from God again.

This post and the prior ones clearly demonstrate you know almost nothing about the Bible or Medieval European history. You should keep your pie hole shut on topics you are ignorant of, before confirming that ignorance in public.

You are describing yourself again, Sybil.

DON'T TRY TO BLAME YOUR PROBLEM ON ANYBODY ELSE!

 

[Into the Night]

LOL
Right, 'don't eat from the tree of knowledge' is not an organized or comprehensive moral law that has guided western ethical values for centuries.

Nope. Go read the Bible, Sybil.

 

[Hume]

I didn't say that at all.

apparently reading isn't a strong skill for you.


I'm always saying morality is rational.

this offends the masons who want to keep morality crazy and religious so there's always war.

Sorry, you are extremely inarticulate and a waste of my time.