Atheist versus former atheist debate

[Kamala Trump]

This part is true.

Since different religions and beliefs have different ideas about 'morality', what makes this morality universal?

commonalities of not lying, not stealing, not welching on agreements. no unjustified violence.

etc....

 

[Kamala Trump]

why is it so objectionable to say morality is rational?

is it it just power players acting immorally wanting to pretend they can whitewash their shit with fancy talk?

no ma'am.

 

[Into the Night]

A lot of evidence suggests it's hard wired into our psyches,

Fine.

As for Buddhism, it's the ultimate expression of narcissism in practice. Christianity is by far the most successful paradigm; even Hegel believed it to be the most advanced form of theology. It was so revolutionary because it appealed to basic human experiences.

An interesting point.

Another atheist, F.A, Hayek,

Hayek is not an atheist.

writes on the failures of 'rational constructivism' to do better than Christian traditions in stabilizing culture and govt institutions, and that it is probably a bad idea to strip Christianity out and trying to substitute what passes for 'rationalism' in its place, given how influential psuedo-intellectual faddism is on politics and economics.

The Fatal Conceit - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

At least he admits it to some degree.

The same errors Communists make is also the same ones corporatists on the right make as well, that technocracy is better than other methods and we should all let monopolies and cartels run free, i.e. 'too big to fail' scams.

Too Big to Fail scams are government supported. THAT is communism. Corporations, even large corporations, are NOT communism; even if they whine to government for money or whine to the government to enforce a monopoly.
(why is there only one monopolies commission?)

Monopolies are unstable. They are self destructive. You don't need government here manipulating markets (fascism). All it takes to break a monopoly is for some little guy to show up with a new or more efficient idea. The old dinosaur can't maneuver fast enough in the market or even realize there is a threat until it's too late. A recent example: the computer industry, once dominated by IBM mainframes. Now there's a computer on every desk and in every modern car (several, in fact). Then there's the Big Three automotive companies. With the introduction of cheaper and better built foreign cars, that's a distant memory now.

There's always some little guy to come around and shoot your kneecaps off.

We can see how well Communists and giant corporations get along via the corporate build up of Red China and labor racketeering around the globe. They are two peas in a pod.

Okay...let's talk about this 'racketeering' around the globe and China.

China primarily has communism. It also has a lot of fascism. It ALSO has capitalism, just like any other nation on Earth. These are NOT forms of government. The oligarchy (which IS a form of government!) in China wants to implement communism and fascism. These are both forms of socialism. ALL socialism is based on theft of wealth. It cannot exist without capitalism nearby to steal wealth from. Capitalism is the ONLY economic system that creates wealth. It needs no government to function or to 'manage' it (which is really just fascism and communism and not capitalism at all).

Capitalism has been argued to be the only economic system (and quite rightly so) in existence. Theft by fascism, communism, or slavery, is not an economic system. It is theft.

As to the so-called 'racketeering'. That's government at work, not corporations.

Capitalism is open to anyone. Anyone can play, rich or poor. It is the only way to lift the poor from their plight. All you need is initiative and drive. There is no slavery. There is no government needed to tell you what you can make or how to make it, who you can hire, or who you must fire. Market forces (including price discovery) determine your success.

Sure...anyone selling anything wants the highest price possible. Anyone buying anything wants the lowest price possible.
Somewhere in the middle is the price they agree upon. Only then does the deal take place. Until then, no deal.

Cartels? They can't last for the same reason a monopoly is naturally self destructive. There's always some renegade that won't conform to the cartel and beat them at their own game. Such things as cartels and monopolies can ONLY continue to exist with government help.

Government is not the solution to the problem. Government IS the problem. --Ronald Reagan

 

[Into the Night]

That wasn't the question I was asked. I was told that the ethos of Judeo-Christianty is just 'common sense' that was always practiced by humans since time immemorial. This is clearly false.

Oh? The Bible describes an Adam and Eve, and how God placed them in the Garden of Eden. Does that go back far enough, Sybil?

 

[Into the Night]

commonalities of not lying, not stealing, not welching on agreements. no unjustified violence.

etc....

Yet...as you have already pointed out, the Catholic church has already done all of these; yet they claim a set of morals...obviously different than yours or mine.

So the question remains. What is universal about morals?

 

[Into the Night]

why is it so objectionable to say morality is rational?

It isn't. Morality is quite rational.

is it it just power players acting immorally wanting to pretend they can whitewash their shit with fancy talk?

An interesting way to put it. Even though the Catholic church, for example, claims a morality...due to the way their power players (leaders) lie, steal, and harm people; that would label them as 'immoral', despite their claim.

If this is true, who defines 'The Morals'? You? Me? Trump? Kamala? And on what basis?

 

[Cypress]

Oh? The Bible describes an Adam and Eve, and how God placed them in the Garden of Eden. Does that go back far enough, Sybil?

Genesis is supposed to be primordial history. I don't remember any developed and organized moral law in Genesis.

The lesson here is that you should at least be familiar with the bible and with Medieval European history before you open your pie hole and divulge your ignorance on this thread.

 

[Kamala Trump]

It isn't. Morality is quite rational.

An interesting way to put it. Even though the Catholic church, for example, claims a morality...due to the way their power players (leaders) lie, steal, and harm people; that would label them as 'immoral', despite their claim.

If this is true, who defines 'The Morals'? You? Me? Trump? Kamala? And on what basis?

there are moral principles taught within the catholic church, and there are good people in the organization. just not at the top. sadly.

we could easily sift through the organization personnel and doctrine and say what is corrupt and for power and what is a legitimate concept for living together morally.

morality is a set of behaviors and attitudes that facilitate voluntary, cooperative, and mutually beneficial relationships.

simple put, it's building a hight trust society so we can stop being wary of each other and work together.

morality is the human innvation started in our mammalian caregiving/ bonding ancestral lines.