Avengers

Superfreak said:
Kidding on the last one to a degree. I think the fact is that the books are obviously filled with material that this board would love.

1) Big Government control over their lives, their food supplies, where they go etc...
2) Big Government scared of the independents (in a certain sector that shall be named later)
3) Independents said fuck the sheep, everyone on their own
4) One gesture can spark a revolution
5) Use of children as human shields
6) Politicians should just be shot
etc...
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It's interesting how you read it. I read it as a terrible indictment of greed - the Capital being the 1 percent and all of the others starving in order to feed them. I've read interviews with the author, she states she is making a statement on world poverty and war. However...that is what art is all about. Regardless of how the artist means it, it will always mean different things to different people, and that's a good thing.
 
Darla said:
The author explicitly states outright through Katniss that a people who are willing to kill their children in wars are worthless. I mean, this is not subjective, it's not a guess. It's stated.
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lol... I know... I didn't type the other response fast enough... I was just kidding about the other being the closing message.

I think we may disagree on the term children. I think the use of children under 18 as shields or as gladiator style entertainment immediately qualifies the 'adults' as worthless. I think as a society we do need to be cognitive of the devastation war can have. I think the strong should stand up for those that cannot do so on their own. (Rwanda/Sudan/Congo etc...) That said, the strong should not go simply because they are strong and want what the weaker have.
 
Darla said:
It's interesting how you read it. I read it as a terrible indictment of greed - the Capital being the 1 percent and all of the others starving in order to feed them. I've read interviews with the author, she states she is making a statement on world poverty and war. However...that is what art is all about. Regardless of how the artist means it, it will always mean different things to different people, and that's a good thing.
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The thing is I see it both ways. I see it as big government out of control. The politicians reigning supreme because they have the weapons at their disposal.

I think from the poverty standpoint, I think it can also be seen that the USA is the Capital and the rest of the world (especially the third world) is the districts. We say jump... they do it, because they need our food/medical/technological aide etc...
 
Superfreak said:
lol... I know... I didn't type the other response fast enough... I was just kidding about the other being the closing message.

I think we may disagree on the term children. I think the use of children under 18 as shields or as gladiator style entertainment immediately qualifies the 'adults' as worthless. I think as a society we do need to be cognitive of the devastation war can have. I think the strong should stand up for those that cannot do so on their own. (Rwanda/Sudan/Congo etc...) That said, the strong should not go simply because they are strong and want what the weaker have.
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I do think that she is more likely referencing countries like Rwanda, and also the terrible starvation in places like sub-sahraran Africa. I definitely think she is writing from a global perspective and my use of the term 1% is not meant to imply she's criticizing America or anything that small. She's definitely looking global IMO.
 
Superfreak said:
The thing is I see it both ways. I see it as big government out of control. The politicians reigning supreme because they have the weapons at their disposal.

I think from the poverty standpoint, I think it can also be seen that the USA is the Capital and the rest of the world (especially the third world) is the districts. We say jump... they do it, because they need our food/medical/technological aide etc...
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I feel like the Capital is the elite in all first world nations, but I have not seen her be specific on that, so you could be right.
 
As for the author's views... I really try to avoid reading what the author says the message was until after I have had time to formulate what I took from the story. Then compare and contrast.

It's like Bruce Springsteens Born in the USA... he did not intend it to be the chest thumping 'American pride' kind of song that it became. He intended it to be an indictment against Vietnam and the reckless way we go to war etc...
 
Superfreak said:
As for the author's views... I really try to avoid reading what the author says the message was until after I have had time to formulate what I took from the story. Then compare and contrast.

It's like Bruce Springsteens Born in the USA... he did not intend it to be the chest thumping 'American pride' kind of song that it became. He intended it to be an indictment against Vietnam and the reckless way we go to war etc...
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Yep and I am still stumped when people don't get the message in that song! But yep, that's a perfect example.
 
Darla said:
I feel like the Capital is the elite in all first world nations, but I have not seen her be specific on that, so you could be right.
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that could well be... the point she is making came across, regardless of whether she meant just the US or the elite of the the world as a whole.

Now this might piss some Dems off... but I think too often their 'help the unfortunate' mantra stops at our borders. Don't get me wrong, Conservatives do tend to be the stand on your own mentality (as do I to a large degree) and we often feel that the poor in the US have the opportunities they need to succeed and thus I think we look outward more than inward. (this too is obviously debatable) Personally, I think it far more necessary to help Africa, S. America and the third world Asian countries to step up to the next level than it is to make sure our 'poor' have cell phones, tvs, etc... Not that we cannot help those here when they get knocked down, but I strongly oppose the perpetual welfare state.
 
Superfreak said:
that could well be... the point she is making came across, regardless of whether she meant just the US or the elite of the the world as a whole.

Now this might piss some Dems off... but I think too often their 'help the unfortunate' mantra stops at our borders. Don't get me wrong, Conservatives do tend to be the stand on your own mentality (as do I to a large degree) and we often feel that the poor in the US have the opportunities they need to succeed and thus I think we look outward more than inward. (this too is obviously debatable) Personally, I think it far more necessary to help Africa, S. America and the third world Asian countries to step up to the next level than it is to make sure our 'poor' have cell phones, tvs, etc... Not that we cannot help those here when they get knocked down, but I strongly oppose the perpetual welfare state.
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Capitalism requires a strong welfare state, or social safety net, whichever you want to call it. There are millions of Americans with no health care and who don't have enough food, literally. So conservatives are just living in a fantasy world. But yes I know dems who keep volunteer work and donations within our borders. I donate monthly to Unicef and Doctors without borders, my two favorite organizations, so that is not my mindset at all.
 
Darla said:
Capitalism requires a strong welfare state, or social safety net, whichever you want to call it. There are millions of Americans with no health care and who don't have enough food, literally. So conservatives are just living in a fantasy world. But yes I know dems who keep volunteer work and donations within our borders. I donate monthly to Unicef and Doctors without borders, my two favorite organizations, so that is not my mindset at all.
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A welfare state and a safety net are there to help when you fall... they should not be there for you to stay in indefinitely. The system should be in place to train/retrain people to step out of the welfare state. The proverbial hand should be there to help you up out of the net.
 
Superfreak said:
A welfare state and a safety net are there to help when you fall... they should not be there for you to stay in indefinitely. The system should be in place to train/retrain people to step out of the welfare state. The proverbial hand should be there to help you up out of the net.
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We have no real system to train and retrain people first of all. What we do have is piss-poor. And the other thing that for some reasons cons will just never get through their heads - it is simply a fact that there will always be people who not only do not thrive under capitalism, but who capitalism simply fails. They can't make it. They never will make it. They need to be taken care of it's the price for everything we have and we should be willing to pay it. It's the only humane way.

Not everyone can sleep with their writing students to pay their rent SF!
 
Darla said:
We have no real system to train and retrain people first of all. What we do have is piss-poor. And the other thing that for some reasons cons will just never get through their heads - it is simply a fact that there will always be people who not only do not thrive under capitalism, but who capitalism simply fails. They can't make it. They never will make it. They need to be taken care of it's the price for everything we have and we should be willing to pay it. It's the only humane way.

Not everyone can sleep with their writing students to pay their rent SF!
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I understand that we do not have the system in place today. I was more advocating for such a system. It was tried in Milwaukee and has worked well... not perfect by any means, but it is a good starting point.

There are very very very few people that are going to 'fail' in a capitalist system. Most will be those with mental instability or learning disorders. But the vast majority on welfare today are not in that camp. The system has simply failed them. Be it a failure of public education, a lack of training/retraining programs, society or whatever, they have the ability, they just need to be shown a path towards success and provided with the tools for the journey.
 
Superfreak said:
I understand that we do not have the system in place today. I was more advocating for such a system. It was tried in Milwaukee and has worked well... not perfect by any means, but it is a good starting point.

There are very very very few people that are going to 'fail' in a capitalist system. Most will be those with mental instability or learning disorders. But the vast majority on welfare today are not in that camp. The system has simply failed them. Be it a failure of public education, a lack of training/retraining programs, society or whatever, they have the ability, they just need to be shown a path towards success and provided with the tools for the journey.
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No I couldn't disagree more. It's not true that very few people are going to fail in a capitalist system! The exact reverse is true, and it's becoming more and more so every day. We simply cannot employ these people since globalization.
 
Darla said:
No I couldn't disagree more. It's not true that very few people are going to fail in a capitalist system! The exact reverse is true, and it's becoming more and more so every day. We simply cannot employ these people since globalization.
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That is not true. That is an excuse used by liberals to justify maintaining the perpetual welfare state, making people dependent for life on the government.

Kind of like Obama's 'Julia'
 
Darla said:
I guess sometimes I can be sexist in my own way, your reading the Hunger Games books reminds me of how I tried to get my niece to read it. She saw the movie and was very uncomfortable with it. She told her mom she didn't like it, but I know her, and I said, is it that you didn't like it or is it that it made you angry because children die in it. ANd that's what really made her mad and why she didn't like it. I thought it would help a lot of she read the books. She is too busy on the damned texts and all that other stuff with her friends. So out of the other room, my little nephew says "I'm reading it aunt blah blah" I was shocked. And he is and he is very into them now. It never occurred to me to give them to him, but he already had them. Kinda sexist. I loved the fact that he's reading them and loves Katniss though. It's awesome.
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How cute!
 
Superfreak said:
A welfare state and a safety net are there to help when you fall... they should not be there for you to stay in indefinitely. The system should be in place to train/retrain people to step out of the welfare state. The proverbial hand should be there to help you up out of the net.
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I thought the Republicans overhaul of welfare changed all that, you can no longer be on welfare indefinitely?
 
Rana said:
I thought the Republicans overhaul of welfare changed all that, you can no longer be on welfare indefinitely?
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This is correct. The "perpetual welfare state" is just a myth now; no one is allowed to stay on welfare indefinitely.
 
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