Capitalism Has Destroyed / Is Destroying American Family Values

[PoliTalker]

In Poli's world...the same thing would happen.



That is the system in Poli's suggestions also, Flash.

What you are advocating is requiring people who CANNOT earn their livings (either because they do not possess the talents or because allowing them to produce would mean a loss of production)...

...MUST WORK.

People like you essentially would require people to dig holes and fill them in...because you will not let yourself see the needs created by our increasingly mechanized society.

Get away from the "Protestant work ethic." It is now a cancer on society's thinking.

I don't get how people who cannot work are supposed to work. That doesn't seem possible.

It's like conservatives assume everybody is of sound mind and doesn't struggle with the things most of us take for granted.

Some simply have mental issues which prevent that. Anxiety, stress, whatever. Maybe if we are paying people to do nothing some of them could learn to analyze mental issues and help those who struggle with this. I have a daughter in law who is just too high-stress to hold a regular job. She's really smart, but unlike her siblings, can't remain focused. And she harbors grudges. She was raised the same as siblings, but came out different. Many families experience this - a bad apple. There can be many causes. After machines take over most jobs this could be a useful endeavor for society to undertake. We simply cannot afford all the mental counseling needed in this country now. But maybe this future world will be able to. The costs of not addressing this stuff are incalculable and immense.

An analogy might be driving. You see it all out there on the public roadways. You wonder what in the world some of these people are thinking, taking such foolish risks. Obviously, many of them are not thinking clearly. As you wonder why these other drivers are doing such crazy things, there is a tendency to assume they are of a sound mind. That they are simply doing it out of maliciousness to be mean and selfish. The reality is they are probably not, which explains why they do these crazy things. But in the moment, you might not have time to consider all of this. Cars look similar. There are plenty of them being driven by clear headed mature people. All of a sudden one of them does something unexpected and dangerous, you have to react. And you might wonder: "What a crazy thing to do!" Well, maybe the mind which decided to do that crazy thing is actually a bit crazy. It's not like there will be a sign on the side of the car to let you know....

I think the reality is there simply are a lot of crazy people out there who need help.

 

[evince]

In Poli's world...the same thing would happen.



That is the system in Poli's suggestions also, Flash.

What you are advocating is requiring people who CANNOT earn their livings (either because they do not possess the talents or because allowing them to produce would mean a loss of production)...

...MUST WORK.

People like you essentially would require people to dig holes and fill them in...because you will not let yourself see the needs created by our increasingly mechanized society.

Get away from the "Protestant work ethic." It is now a cancer on society's thinking.

Its sociopathic in the face of this new reality

If there are fewer and fewer jobs do to automation we cant just off the excess humans


the sociopathic can just watch them die and suffer without a thought


the NON broken humans would be in horror and would hate this world for it


there are people who are sociopaths

they share this posters lack of concern for others


4 in 100 humans are sociopaths



3 will be men and 1 will be a woman



that means there is a HUGE population of sociopaths in our lives


they must not be listened to in this life


they need to be told those sociopathic ideas are not acceptable to the nonsociopathic


if you dont want to be labled a sociopath


don't back sociopathic ideas

 

[Ross Dolan]

Rather than a "screw you" attitude I have a much higher opinion of these people than you do.

I suspect that is as far from the truth as anything Donald Trump says after waking up in the morning.

In fact, I am calling BULLSHIT.

I do not think anybody has to "earn" the right to have a job (other than be qualified) and think everyone can develop talents and skills to earn a living. There are those who cannot "compete" who may be mentally retarded, disabled, or otherwise cannot function, but even some of them are capable of doing something. Microsoft recently started a program for autistic people who have no social skills but are very creative and can perform very well within their working group. If a person cannot care for themselves, we already have programs for them. But a person who lives at home with a part-time job cannot even live on his own, but he very well may be capable of doing so with experience and training. You want to write these people off by giving up on them making them dependent and psychologically helpless.

My guess is you might vote for a candidate who advocates euthanizing people who are marginally productive.

I taught a total of 44.5 years and saw many students who could not or would not perform academically. But many of them switched to nursing or some other type of occupational training and are doing quite will. One, who couldn't pass my class because he would not open a book, switched to plant processing and is now earning a lot of money. In your world this person would be eliminated from the "talented" class because he could not compete academically. Some students are only in college to get their grant money or whose parents health insurance requires them to be a full-time student for coverage. These eventually drop out but may return years later when they are more mature and motivated.

I hope your students learned more about life and empathy for fellow humans than you did.

You take a very paternalistic view of these people and think society has to provide for them when many can do quite well when given the opportunity. We can't give up on people because somebody has decided they are not talented enough to have a job.

You are distorting what I have been advocating.

Anyway...allow me to make myself abundantly clear. I am NOT saying we have no lazy people...or have no people willing to scam the system to be net takers rather than net givers...

...BUT I AM SAYING THAT THIS NATION AND OUR NATIONAL IDEALS ARE NOT DAMAGED AS MUCH BY THOSE TYPES OF PE0PLE...THAN THEY ARE BY PEOPLE LIKE YOU, FLASH. YOU ARE PART OF A MINDSET DETERMINED TO ENDORSE "I'VE GOT MINE, FUCK YOU"...

...AND TO PRETEND THAT YOU ARE NOT DOING SO...OR THAT YOU DO IT FOR NOBLE, PRINCIPLED, HONORABLE PURPOSES, WHEN IN FACT, IT STEMS FROM A SOCIAL DISEASE THAT IS DESTROYING OUR HUMANITY.

Hope I was clear enough.

I intend to fight you and people like you with every ounce of strength I can bring to the foray.

K?

 

[Ross Dolan]

Hello Flash,

Thanks for engaging in this very interesting conversation.



The revolt that Frank and I are concerned might be possible would occur if conservatives got everything they wanted. The libertarian dream. So they take away all government assistance programs, and capitalism takes away most jobs. There is no universal health care, so most would not have that. The poor are being routinely shut out of home ownership and the rich are becoming landlords. People without an income cannot even rent a home, so tens of millions in America would become homeless and destitute. But hey. Nobody would be taxed to pay for 'some lazy slob to have everything without working.' The only problem is in this land of 'haves' and have-nots' the powerless have-nots would have nothing except the desire for better conditions. They would realize their only power is in numbers. They would form mobs based on anger at the suppression which shuts them out. Their only recourse would be to protest. If the powerful deem those protests to be annoying and they move to break it up, then it could move (just as it did in Syria) from protesting to bloody fighting. What other recourse would those mobs have?



You don't sound like the kind of person who wants that.



A few of them are. Most are not.



There is no reason that not working leads to being an obese slob. I am retired, and one of the most common comments I hear from my retired friends is: 'I don't know how I ever found enough time to work!' People who are inclined to be busy find things to do. Whether that is projects, tinkering, inventing, composing, writing, art, music, sports, fishing, further education, volunteering, travel, hobbies, part time work, etc, etc, etc. Get a boat. Get a camper. Get an RV. Any of those can become completely time consuming.

Sometimes I feel sorry for people who have so little imagination that if they don't have a job to take up all their time they would be lost and unable to figure out what to do with themselves. To me, that is beyond ridiculous. I can think of so much I would like to do I could fill a dozen lifetimes with activities.

You could make a life out of chatting online (but I would not recommend it.)

I don't even have cable. I simply don't have time to watch regular programming that somebody else wants to get me hooked on. If I HAVE TIME, I try to watch the PBS Newshour, but even then I probably only catch it half the time. Cancelling cable was one of the most liberating things I ever did for myself (besides saving the expense.)

Bolded because it is so intelligent a comment.

 

[evince]

I don't get how people who cannot work are supposed to work. That doesn't seem possible.

It's like conservatives assume everybody is of sound mind and doesn't struggle with the things most of us take for granted.

Some simply have mental issues which prevent that. Anxiety, stress, whatever. Maybe if we are paying people to do nothing some of them could learn to analyze mental issues and help those who struggle with this. I have a daughter in law who is just too high-stress to hold a regular job. She's really smart, but unlike her siblings, can't remain focused. And she harbors grudges. She was raised the same as siblings, but came out different. Many families experience this - a bad apple. There can be many causes. After machines take over most jobs this could be a useful endeavor for society to undertake. We simply cannot afford all the mental counseling needed in this country now. But maybe this future world will be able to. The costs of not addressing this stuff are incalculable and immense.

An analogy might be driving. You see it all out there on the public roadways. You wonder what in the world some of these people are thinking, taking such foolish risks. Obviously, many of them are not thinking clearly. As you wonder why these other drivers are doing such crazy things, there is a tendency to assume they are of a sound mind. That they are simply doing it out of maliciousness to be mean and selfish. The reality is they are probably not, which explains why they do these crazy things. But in the moment, you might not have time to consider all of this. Cars look similar. There are plenty of them being driven by clear headed mature people. All of a sudden one of them does something unexpected and dangerous, you have to react. And you might wonder: "What a crazy thing to do!" Well, maybe the mind which decided to do that crazy thing is actually a bit crazy. It's not like there will be a sign on the side of the car to let you know....

I think the reality is there simply are a lot of crazy people out there who need help.

be very careful in judging her


you do not know the inner workings of her family.


not all children are abused equally in a family

you don't know wether asa child a neighbor may have molested ONLY HER.


learn who she is

don't worry about her family

 

[evince]

Rather than a "screw you" attitude I have a much higher opinion of these people than you do. I do not think anybody has to "earn" the right to have a job (other than be qualified) and think everyone can develop talents and skills to earn a living. There are those who cannot "compete" who may be mentally retarded, disabled, or otherwise cannot function, but even some of them are capable of doing something. Microsoft recently started a program for autistic people who have no social skills but are very creative and can perform very well within their working group. If a person cannot care for themselves, we already have programs for them. But a person who lives at home with a part-time job cannot even live on his own, but he very well may be capable of doing so with experience and training. You want to write these people off by giving up on them making them dependent and psychologically helpless.

I taught a total of 44.5 years and saw many students who could not or would not perform academically. But many of them switched to nursing or some other type of occupational training and are doing quite will. One, who couldn't pass my class because he would not open a book, switched to plant processing and is now earning a lot of money. In your world this person would be eliminated from the "talented" class because he could not compete academically. Some students are only in college to get their grant money or whose parents health insurance requires them to be a full-time student for coverage. These eventually drop out but may return years later when they are more mature and motivated.

You take a very paternalistic view of these people and think society has to provide for them when many can do quite well when given the opportunity. We can't give up on people because somebody has decided they are not talented enough to have a job.

maybe you were not the great teacher you thought you were


what did you teach?

 

[Flash]

I intend to fight you and people like you with every ounce of strength I can bring to the foray.

You carry on your "fight" on message boards. I have to go to court as part of my activities as a CASA volunteer (Court Appointed Special Advocate) for children.

You can put all those who are not talented enough to be competitive and have not earned the right to a job in the helpless class and I will continue to work to help them be successful. I never complained about them being lazy or non-productive, that is part of your knee-jerk reaction of trying to put me into your liberal-conservative dichotomy in which you pretend to know what others think. I hope you can eventually realize what people are capable of if people have a little faith in their abilities and future and not throw them away as untalented. I bet you think you will be part of the talented class who has earned the right to a job.

 

[evince]

he sure shows a lot of hate for the people he could not inspire into his field

 

[evince]

You carry on your "fight" on message boards. I have to go to court as part of my activities as a CASA volunteer (Court Appointed Special Advocate) for children.

You can put all those who are not talented enough to be competitive and have not earned the right to a job in the helpless class and I will continue to work to help them be successful. I never complained about them being lazy or non-productive, that is part of your knee-jerk reaction of trying to put me into your liberal-conservative dichotomy in which you pretend to know what others think. I hope you can eventually realize what people are capable of if people have a little faith in their abilities and future and not throw them away as untalented. I bet you think you will be part of the talented class who has earned the right to a job.

that social work claim kinda goes against your own ideas about people not working


the people who receive a GI allotment could volunteer huh

 

[Flash]

maybe you were not the great teacher you thought you were

what did you teach?

I never said I was a great teacher (another example of you projecting)

But I worked hard to help my students and saw many who seemed like lost causes when young develop a love of learning or find a skill to help them take care of their families. I described what I observed, I never claimed I was responsible for their success.

 

[evince]

I never said I was a great teacher (another example of you projecting)

But I worked hard to help my students and saw many who seemed like lost causes when young develop a love of learning or find a skill to help them take care of their families. I wasn't responsible for their success.

so you think you were not a great teacher of your subject ?


that may explain why they left your class and picked another field


why do you blame your students then?

 

[evince]

Flash: I went to college in the 1960s and the students were always talking about "when the revolution comes." Now they are stockbrokers.



But neither are they revolutionaries (except you and Frank)

are you assuming?

 

[evince]

According to IRS the middle class shrunk by 11%. 7% moved to higher income classes. Of course, middle class can be defined many different ways.

According to the latest Department of the Treasury Income Mobility Study:

1. More middle income (3rd decile) moved to higher income (42.1%) than lower income (24.6%) within ten years. 33% remained in the middle.

2. Of the lowest decile 58% had moved to higher income groups in ten years

3. Of the second decile 42% had moved to higher income in ten years and 17% to the lowest decile

4. Of the top 1% 58% moved to lower income groups

link

 

[Ross Dolan]

You carry on your "fight" on message boards. I have to go to court as part of my activities as a CASA volunteer (Court Appointed Special Advocate) for children.

You can put all those who are not talented enough to be competitive and have not earned the right to a job in the helpless class and I will continue to work to help them be successful. I never complained about them being lazy or non-productive, that is part of your knee-jerk reaction of trying to put me into your liberal-conservative dichotomy in which you pretend to know what others think. I hope you can eventually realize what people are capable of if people have a little faith in their abilities and future and not throw them away as untalented. I bet you think you will be part of the talented class who has earned the right to a job.

Have your shirts embroidered with the words, "I've got mine, fuck you" in large letters, Flash.

Nothing will change with you...except the honesty element.

 

[evince]

note the pattern of him viewing others as not deserving respect

 

[Flash]

so you think you were not a great teacher of your subject ?


they may explain shy they left your class and picked another field


why do you blame your student then?

They left the bachelor's program because they were just put in general education classes since they had no real goals or idea what they wanted to do. They found nothing that interested them and changed their focus to programs that took less time, offered definite employment opportunities, and they could see a more direct relevance to classes. They were not interested in any of their general education classes (English, history, science, math, social science, humanities).

Students are often always to blame. Parents push students to enter college even if they have no interest in return for financial support (but parents think they are doing the right thing), high schools that allowed students to pass without opening a book, lack of a goal or knowledge of what they want to do in life, they don't know what else to do, and even some who come to get the financial aid. But if a student chooses not to attend class or do any studying, the blame is on them assuming they have no other special problems.

 

[evince]

They left the bachelor's program because they were just put in general education classes since they had no real goals or idea what they wanted to do. They found nothing that interested them and changed their focus to programs that took less time, offered definite employment opportunities, and they could see a more direct relevance to classes. They were not interested in any of their general education classes (English, history, science, math, social science, humanities).

Students are often always to blame. Parents push students to enter college even if they have no interest in return for financial support (but parents think they are doing the right thing), high schools that allowed students to pass without opening a book, lack of a goal or knowledge of what they want to do in life, they don't know what else to do, and even some who come to get the financial aid. But if a student chooses not to attend class or do any studying, the blame is on them assuming they have no other special problems.

so you fashion your self a mind reader too?


and all those students were interchangeable in your mind?



you have no real ideas of why they left

 

[evince]

Have your shirts embroidered with the words, "I've got mine, fuck you" in large letters, Flash.

Nothing will change with you...except the honesty element.

awesome

 

[Flash]

note the pattern of him viewing others a not deserving respect

More projection and bigoted stereotyping and problems with reading comprehension.

I think everyone deserves respect and never made any suggestions about cutting social programs despite Frank's cute little memes. You both want to imagine what conservatives think based on a forum message board and assume I must be conservative since I don't agree with all of your intolerant liberal views. Your intolerance and denigration of others you think are beneath you is what allowed Donald Trump to be elected--they reacted against your self-righteous views.

 

[Flash]

are you assuming?

No, I look at their voting patterns.