Incels

[Cypress]

Obama is smart and I know it wasn't, and still isn't, on him and his family but he fucked up; he had a choice between being a President who happened to be black and being a Black President. He chose the latter.

This was glaringly seen in his reactions to both Zimmerman-Martin and Ferguson.

You've seen me repeatedly post that there's no such thing as "race", only different cultures. As President, Obama chose to embrace his culture. IMO, this was one component igniting the "Woke" culture. Not the nice, "can't we all get along" culture, but the "Do as we say or else" culture.

As such, his actions deepened the divisions in American politics. Yes, Republicans are fucking authoritarian assholes and clearly have worsened since Newt and the invention of the acronym "RINO". That doesn't absolve Obama from his own actions any more than the Japanese attacking Pearl Harbor absolves the US from concentration camps like Manzanar, CA.

Is it understandable why Obama did what he did? Sure, but understanding shouldn't be confused with condoning, much less praising.

https://www.history.com/topics/world-war-ii/japanese-american-relocation
Japanese Internment Camps

https://www.archives.gov/education/lessons/japanese-relocation
Japanese-American Incarceration During World War II

You may not like Obama's or Jimmy Carter's politics.

But that wasn't the issue I was addressing with RB

The issue was personal character.

I don't think it can be denied that Obama, Biden, Carter had good personal moral character, by the standards of the American presidency.

I think Gerald Ford and Poppy Bush had a personal sense of character and integrity, even if I disavow their politics

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Baloney, Trump is the first President in my lifetime that had no sense of duty. Clinton and Obama both had it. GW also loved his country, I didn’t agree with his politics, but the man loved his country.

We'll have to agree to disagree on the draft-dodging, adulterous liar who was impeached. It's not Black & White...no pun intended. Obama was a product of his culture, one far different from those of Reagan, GHW Bush's and Biden's generation.

Agreed #45 was the least of them.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

You may not like Obama's or Jimmy Carter's politics.

But that wasn't the issue I was addressing with RB

The issue was personal character.

I don't think it can be denied that Obama, Biden, Carter had good personal moral character, by the standards of the American presidency.

I think Gerald Ford and Poppy Bush had a personal sense of character and integrity, even if I disavow their politics

Good personal character is, indeed, important for any leader. For a President, upholding their oath above all other things is paramount.

 

[ThatOwlWoman]

Obama is smart and I know it wasn't, and still isn't, on him and his family but he fucked up; he had a choice between being a President who happened to be black and being a Black President. He chose the latter.

This was glaringly seen in his reactions to both Zimmerman-Martin and Ferguson.

You've seen me repeatedly post that there's no such thing as "race", only different cultures. As President, Obama chose to embrace his culture. IMO, this was one component igniting the "Woke" culture. Not the nice, "can't we all get along" culture, but the "Do as we say or else" culture.

As such, his actions deepened the divisions in American politics. Yes, Republicans are fucking authoritarian assholes and clearly have worsened since Newt and the invention of the acronym "RINO". That doesn't absolve Obama from his own actions any more than the Japanese attacking Pearl Harbor absolves the US from concentration camps like Manzanar, CA.

Is it understandable why Obama did what he did? Sure, but understanding shouldn't be confused with condoning, much less praising.

https://www.history.com/topics/world-war-ii/japanese-american-relocation
Japanese Internment Camps

https://www.archives.gov/education/lessons/japanese-relocation
Japanese-American Incarceration During World War II

Balderdash. I see Cypress responded better than I could.

 

[ThatOwlWoman]

Good personal character is, indeed, important for any leader. For a President, upholding their oath above all other things is paramount.

#TRE45ON not only ignored his oath, he broke it over and over.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Balderdash. I see Cypress responded better than I could.

Disagreed. What many political party affiliates often forget is that this is not a Black and White issue. It's not a, as GW Bush famously declared, situation of "You're either with us or against us"....which this forum quickly devolves into being.

Say something nice about #45 or against #44 and the Democrats start lighting their torches and sharpening their pitchforks. Do the opposite and it's the RWNJs who do the same. Why? Because they see the world as "you're either with us or against us". There is no in-between for them.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

#TRE45ON not only ignored his oath, he broke it over and over.

Agreed 100%. If it was up me, he'd be hung on the WH lawn then his head mounted on a spike at the WH gates.

What does that have to do with other presidents failing in their duty?

 

[ThatOwlWoman]

Disagreed. What many political party affiliates often forget is that this is not a Black and White issue. It's not a, as GW Bush famously declared, situation of "You're either with us or against us"....which this forum quickly devolves into being.

Say something nice about #45 or against #44 and the Democrats start lighting their torches and sharpening their pitchforks. Do the opposite and it's the RWNJs who do the same. Why? Because they see the world as "you're either with us or against us". There is no in-between for them.

I think you misunderstood that he was talking about character rather than presidential policies.

 

[Cypress]

Good personal character is, indeed, important for any leader. For a President, upholding their oath above all other things is paramount.

The claim RB made is that Democrats lack character.

That is a preposterous claim to make.

Barack Obama married one woman, never cheated on her as far as we know, was a good father, cherished his mother, and dedicated his life to public service when he could have done anything he wanted with a Harvard law degree.

Whether or not anyone agrees with Obamacare or the Afghanistan policy, those ^^ are almost universally seen as marks of good character.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

I think you misunderstood that he was talking about character rather than presidential policies.

I was talking about sense of duty, which is directly related to both character and personal morals.

About the best I can say about Saint Ronnie is that he at least tried to pretend to be a moral person while serving as POTUS.

He had a sense of duty to his country. Something lacking in most presidents. GHW Bush had it and Biden has it. Those in between, not so much.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

The claim RB made is that Democrats lack character.

That is a preposterous claim to make.

Barack Obama married one woman, never cheated on her as far as we know, was a good father, cherished his mother, and dedicated his life to public service when he could have done anything he wanted with a Harvard law degree.

Whether or not anyone agrees with Obamacare or the Afghanistan policy, those ^^ are almost universally seen as marks of good character.

Not wanting to be insulting, but I don't put a lot of stock in the ability of many pro-Trumpers to be good judges of character.

Agreed it's preposterous. FWIW, the same goes for anyone who begins a political judgment with "All <fill in the blank> are....<fill in the blank>".

I believe Barack Obama is a good man.

America needs better medical care; especially preventative medicine and education. Michelle took a lot of bullshit over focusing on a healthy diet. The dumbasses who attacked her over it are liars, dumbasses and/or anti-American.

Part of good character is carrying out one's obligations. There's a big difference between a campaign promise and taking an oath. You may have noticed how hard I am on JPP member who has taken an oath of service when they violate that oath. I hold Presidents other politicians to the same standard.

 

[ThatOwlWoman]

I was talking about sense of duty, which is directly related to both character and personal morals.

Obama definitely had that as well. What whites forget is that he was a mixed race person who represented *all* Americans. Not just favored groups. Unfortunately some whites think that by showing empathy for the young black men being killed by LEOs, he was somehow being divisive. What you all wanted was someone who talked and acted "white" and hid the other parts of who he is.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Obama definitely had that as well. What whites forget is that he was a mixed race person who represented *all* Americans. Not just favored groups. Unfortunately some whites think that by showing empathy for the young black men being killed by LEOs, he was somehow being divisive.

What you all wanted was someone who talked and acted "white" and hid the other parts of who he is.

If I posted "what blacks forget..." would you think that is racist, TOW?

An excellent point about Obama being mixed "race". In fact, he is over 50% "white", so why is he considered "black"? Genetics or culture?

What I want is for the President of the United States to be a President for all citizens, not just the ones in the same political party, the same skin tone, the same income bracket or any other subcategory. I also expect anyone who takes an oath to carry it out to the best of their ability just like it says:

"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."

 

[NiftyNiblick]

Sooo...according to you, a drunk on a DUI homicide case can blame fate or God for the deaths he caused?

People are products of their genes and upbringing. However, they are still responsible for their actions unless they can prove there was another influence beyond their control. Insanity being one example. You are free to believe human beings are ambulatory meat computers reacting to biochemical and genetic program. I'm free to believe there's more to a human being than the parts.

The law assumes it exists by virtue of the fact it holds people accountable for their actions.

See? You made a free choice to insult 29M Americans because you feel you are superior to all of them. That's a choice you made. Free Will.

I don't give a fuck about who believes what.

I'm just saying that psychologists have not been able to prove the existence of free will up until this point.
This discussion is about science, not beliefs and not attitudes.

If we behave as though free will exists, and most of us admittedly do, the reality is that we possibly didn't cultivate that opinion on the basis of free will either.
It was, very possibly, a genetic or environmental predisposition for us to believe in free will.

It [free will] may possibly exist, but given the present state of knowledge, we can't just assume that it does with any confidence.

The one universal deficiency of humans is that we like to imagine that we're a lot more than we actually are.
Yet, if we're brutally honest, we must admit the the significant majority of other humans that we meet are insufferable assholes.
Who, with free will, would choose to be one of those?

Anyway, that's why I believe in rehabilitation when its possible and humane euthanasia when it isn't as opposed to imprisonment or other forms of punishment.
For all that we know, nobody is at fault for anything. We must handle socially-destructive behavior in a way that protects society from it
but doesn't put blame on the perpetrators. in all likelihood, they're just batshit crazy and should be put gently to sleep.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

I don't give a fuck about who believes what.

I'm just saying that psychologists have not been able to prove the existence of free will up until this point.
This discussion is about science, not beliefs and not attitudes.

If we behave as though free will exists, and most of us admittedly do, the reality is that we possibly didn't cultivate that opinion on the basis of free will either.
It was, very possibly, a genetic or environmental predisposition for us to believe in free will.

It [free will] may possibly exist, but given the present state of knowledge, we can't just assume that it does with any confidence.

The one universal deficiency of humans is that we like to imagine that we're a lot more than we actually are.
Yet, if we're brutally honest, we must admit the the significant majority of other humans that we meet are insufferable assholes.
Who, with free will, would choose to be one of those?

Anyway, that's why I believe in rehabilitation when its possible and humane euthanasia when it isn't as opposed to imprisonment or other forms of punishment.
For all that we know, nobody is at fault for anything. We must handle socially-destructive behavior in a way that protects society from it
but doesn't put blame on the perpetrators. in all likelihood, they're just batshit crazy and should be put gently to sleep.

Nice rant. You must also believe that human beings can be brainwashed and remain brainwashed for the rest of their lives. I do not. The difference is a matter of "free will".

Admittedly, people can vary in strength of will. Charlie Manson didn't just pick pretty girls and bend them to his will. He picked girls who were susceptible to his way of thinking. Same for Jonestown, political movements, etc.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/brainwashing

brainwashing, also called Coercive Persuasion, systematic effort to persuade nonbelievers to accept a certain allegiance, command, or doctrine. A colloquial term, it is more generally applied to any technique designed to manipulate human thought or action against the desire, will, or knowledge of the individual. ...

...The depth and permanence of changes in attitude and point of view depend on the personality of the individual, degree of motivation to be reformed, and the degree to which the environment supports the new frame of reference.

^^^
I call that "free will".

This link, while interesting, conflates brainwashing and influencing. The 2016 election springs to mind as "influencing".
https://jonestown.sdsu.edu/?page_id=31384
Does Brainwashing Exist?

The American Psychological Association, for example, has declined to take a position on brainwashing as a valid psychological concept. The courts have debated whether brainwashing is an acceptable legal defense or not – mostly it’s not – and scholars have argued both sides of the issue with no resolution....

...To some extent, the brainwashing explanation is useful because it gets us off the hook. We’re not responsible. It wasn’t our fault. “The devil made me do it.” Does that mean brainwashing is merely a convenient rationalization to avoid personal responsibility? ...

...Brainwashing in its most controversial form is sometimes called “robot theory.” The idea is that people can be made into robots, such that they will perform the most horrendous acts or behave in ways completely at variance with their prior beliefs and values...

...What we call brainwashing may depend on what we already accept as desirable ideology. We don’t call it brainwashing when mainline churches convert people to widely-held religious beliefs. But when New Religious Movements persuade their adherents to believe in radical ideas, or ideas we perceive as dangerous to us and to our way of life, we are tempted to label them as cults and to perceive their methods as brainwashing....

...We need to accept that in the world today there exist powerful methods of influencing ordinary people, including ourselves, that can change long-held belief systems and behavior. These methods can be used for good or evil. ...

https://www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-library/abstracts/brainwashing-criminal-law-defence
Brainwashing as a Criminal Law Defence

A justification for making brainwashing an excusing condition can be found in each of three major approaches to excusing criminal liability: (1) that punishment should be withheld where it is incapable of having a deterrent effect, (2) that a moral license to punish should not extend to cases where the defendant's actions could not be regarded as voluntary, and (3) that excusing conditions are those that preclude an inference from the act to the actor's character. Although several criticisms might be advanced against the proposed defense, psychological evidence exists to establish beyond doubt the brainwashing phenomenon and its causal link with illegal acts. There are valid moral arguments that brainwashing should afford an excuse to all crimes. They are based on the idea that a person acting when brainwashed is not properly regarded as the same person who reverts to normal behavior after deprogramming.

It's not. LOL

 

[Althea]

^^^
Outed himself as a Trumper

Not according to him.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Going through old files. The one below is from two years ago. Any guesses who it's about?

 

[Althea]

Balderdash. I see Cypress responded better than I could.

Yea. Obama was a racist.

 

[Althea]

Balderdash. I see Cypress responded better than I could.

...

 

[Althea]

Balderdash. I see Cypress responded better than I could.

..