New poll: 21% of atheists believe in God

[Damocles]

yes it is irrational damocles, because what they consider "personal experience" is usuall trivial things like "I had a dream" or they saw the virgin mary on a cheese sandwich

It really doesn't matter what they consider it, did it effect them?

A person who has a dream about God helping them quit drugs who is then able to quit what they were addicted to until that moment isn't being irrational if they believe in God thereafter.

It would be irrational for them to expect you to believe because of their experience (often the case, it isn't my argument that people are rational as most are not) and it would be equally irrational for an atheist to expect them to reject their experience for that of the atheist...

A person who suddenly is in remission after prayer (inexplicably by science) isn't irrational if they believe the prayer helped them. (Nor would they be irrational if they didn't believe it and remained skeptical).

 

[BRUTALITOPS]

It really doesn't matter what they consider it, did it effect them?

A person who has a dream about God helping them quit drugs who is then able to quit what they were addicted to until that moment isn't being irrational if they believe in God thereafter.

It would be irrational for them to expect you to believe because of their experience (often the case, it isn't my argument that people are rational as most are not) and it would be equally irrational for an atheist to expect them to reject their experience for that of the atheist...

A person who suddenly is in remission after prayer (inexplicably by science) isn't irrational if they believe the prayer helped them. (Nor would they be irrational if they didn't believe it and remained skeptical).

it is not rational to conclude, due to a physical and easily explained situation that some invisible man talked to you in the shower. It is irrational, delusional, and characteristic of mental illness.

 

[Damocles]

it is not rational to conclude, due to a physical and easily explained situation that some invisible man talked to you in the shower. It is irrational, delusional, and characteristic of mental illness.

If the belief started from that and they actually heard auditory hallucinations then yes.

However, their belief in the invisible man and his capacity to "hear" them through prayer almost never begins with a conversation in the shower. Whether or not you or they believe that he could hear them and give insight is almost never based by the evidence of the shower. (Although sometimes it is, think Saul being blinded on the road to Damascus).

A person who was able to give up addiction in an instant through conversion and insight communicated "to" them during prayer would not be irrational in believing that same type of insight can come during a shower if that is where they choose to pray, even if you and I believe they are listening to their own subconscious.

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

that some invisible man talked to you in the shower.

Here is the problem in a nutshell! You have absolutely NO comprehension of what God is! It's NOT an "invisible man" or anything remotely similar to one! This is your caricature of God, based on your own stupidity and ignorance. God is most often called "He" because the male is the dominant gender in our species, and we can better relate to God in that way. There is no actual gender of God, gender is a mortal attribute, not a spiritual one. And "invisibility" is somewhat subjective... can you SEE gravity? can you SEE air? There is not a doubt that these things do exist, but they are "invisible" to us.

 

[BRUTALITOPS]

Impression of dixie:

"you can't know god, you don't know what he is. You can't understand him. But I do know he is not male, and I know he is not invisible (though I have never seen him). God also doesn't have a gender. Remember though, you can't know what god is like"

/logic

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

Impression of dixie:

"you can't know god, you don't know what he is. You can't understand him. But I do know he is not male, and I know he is not invisible (though I have never seen him). God also doesn't have a gender. Remember though, you can't know what god is like"

/logic

Impression of Grind:

Duh... uhm... eerrr.... whu wuz i gunna say, i fergut!
dunt u all thank im brilliant?

 

[Damocles]

Here is the problem in a nutshell! You have absolutely NO comprehension of what God is! It's NOT an "invisible man" or anything remotely similar to one! This is your caricature of God, based on your own stupidity and ignorance. God is most often called "He" because the male is the dominant gender in our species, and we can better relate to God in that way. There is no actual gender of God, gender is a mortal attribute, not a spiritual one. And "invisibility" is somewhat subjective... can you SEE gravity? can you SEE air? There is not a doubt that these things do exist, but they are "invisible" to us.

Here is your problem. I only used the term used in the previous post. You are projecting mostly based on ignorance of what I am saying.

In this thread I simply point out rationality and have yet to subject any of you to my personal beliefs. People can be rational and still believe quite the opposite of each other depending on rationale. It is always easy for us to dismiss the beliefs of others and say they are irrational because they do not believe what I do, but that dismisses that their experience may be different and they can be wholly rational and still believe differently.

BTW - This often happens in politics too, and I still argue against it when it is happening in that arena as well.

 

[PostmodernProphet]

being 99.99^100000000 is statistically equivalent to 100%. The chances are so minutely small that they don't deserve being considered. And that is why I am an atheist. I do not believe in god. I don't not believe in fairy tales and invisible men in the sky that know every detail of an entire universe. I don't believe in unicorns or invisible moon orbiting teacups. I don't believe in santa claus, or the easter bunny.

My conclusions are based on rationality. The conclusions of the religious are based on irrationality.

the very fact that you think you can "quantify" belief shows that you are not acting on "reason"......

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

Here is your problem. I only used the term used in the previous post. You are projecting mostly based on ignorance of what I am saying.

In this thread I simply point out rationality and have yet to subject any of you to my personal beliefs. People can be rational and still believe quite the opposite of each other depending on rationale. It is always easy for us to dismiss the beliefs of others and say they are irrational because they do not believe what I do, but that dismisses that their experience may be different and they can be wholly rational and still believe differently.

BTW - This often happens in politics too, and I still argue against it when it is happening in that arena as well.

I wasn't addressing what you said, don't flatter yourself so much. The quote I posted was from Grind, and that was who I was speaking to. If you think God is "an invisible man" then it applies to you as well, but I don't think that accurately describes your beliefs in God. Actually, I think you and I have a very similar concept of God.

What is tiresome, is having to continually stop Atheists and correct them on this, because their minds can't comprehend anything more than the simplest concepts. The only way they can imagine a God is by applying humanistic characteristics to God, as if He were a human, a man, an invisible man in the sky! It is beyond their comprehension that God is spiritual, not of the physical world.

 

[Damocles]

I wasn't addressing what you said, don't flatter yourself so much. The quote I posted was from Grind, and that was who I was speaking to. If you think God is "an invisible man" then it applies to you as well, but I don't think that accurately describes your beliefs in God. Actually, I think you and I have a very similar concept of God.

What is tiresome, is having to continually stop Atheists and correct them on this, because their minds can't comprehend anything more than the simplest concepts. The only way they can imagine a God is by applying humanistic characteristics to God, as if He were a human, a man, an invisible man in the sky! It is beyond their comprehension that God is spiritual, not of the physical world.

I too used the "invisible man" in the shower... my mistake. Your fault.

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

I too used the "invisible man" in the shower... my mistake. Your fault.

Well Damo, a lot of people use "invisible" to describe "spiritual" and a lot of people identify God as "He" indicative of "man" and I have probably used the terminology in a sentence at some point myself. The point is, what do you believe? Do you think God is an invisible human male who lives on a cloud in the sky, and has humanistic wants, needs and desires? That's a little far-fetched.

The spiritual belief in God is gender neutral, and we only refer to Him as "Him" because of societal culture, and our need to relate to the spirit in a familiar way. God is not visible for much the same reason as gravity is not visible. Gravity is not a physical entity, it is a force. You can see the effects of gravity, and if you are willing to look, you can see the effects of God. But we can't "SEE" something that isn't part of the physical world, it is not possible.

"Invisible man in the shower" is evidence someone is ignorant of the concept of God. It shows a complete lack of understanding in difference between spiritual forces and the material world. Of course, it is done facetiously, to take a sarcastic "slap" at those who are spiritual, but the deep-rooted psychology in the choice of wording is revealing.

 

[BRUTALITOPS]

What is tiresome, is having to continually stop Atheists and correct them on this, because their minds can't comprehend anything more than the simplest concepts.

this is so LOL ironic considering these "simple concepts" are based off of the three major world religions (among countless others) and likely encompass what nearly 3 billion+ people believe on this planet.

 

[BRUTALITOPS]

"Invisible man in the shower" is evidence someone is ignorant of the concept of God. It shows a complete lack of understanding in difference between spiritual forces and the material world.

my example was actually taken from a quote YOU said back at fullpolitics.com. You mentioned one time that jesus talked to you when you were in the shower.


Also, the vast majority of religions say that man is made in god's image.

This is something you likely believed as well up until two years ago when it wasn't convenient anymore.

So it's really not out of bounds when atheists refer to god in this way, considering it's how the majority of religious people DO see him.

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

my example was actually taken from a quote YOU said back at fullpolitics.com. You mentioned one time that jesus talked to you when you were in the shower.


Also, the vast majority of religions say that man is made in god's image.

This is something you likely believed as well up until two years ago when it wasn't convenient anymore.

So it's really not out of bounds when atheists refer to god in this way, considering it's how the majority of religious people DO see him.

No, I have never spoken to Jesus in the shower, Grind. You are mistaken.

I do recall relaying a story of personal experience. I was taking a shower one day, and thinking about the arrangements I needed to make before going overseas, there are a million things that have to be done... when an indescribable 'feeling' came over me, and I clearly felt the presence of another entity in the shower with me. I clearly heard a voice in my head, telling me to transfer some investments before I left. I had not even thought about my investments, it was the last thing on my mind, but that incident persisted in my mind the rest of that day and into the next. Eventually, I did go and make the transfers, and long story short, I was grateful that I did! It netted me about $100k I would have lost, had I not done that.

I don't BELIEVE that was God, I do KNOW it happened! I'm not crazy, I am not mentally unstable, I don't "hear voices" any other times... but this experience did happen to me, and I can't explain it any other way. I was spiritually moved by something, to do something I had not thought of doing, and it did benefit me to follow the guidance. I have heard similar stories from others over the years, I am certain I am not the only person to have experienced this.

On another occasion, I was similarly moved by some spiritual force, to volunteer my time at a local homeless shelter. There was nothing especially beneficial to me in doing this, it required a great deal of personal sacrifice to do it... but I felt moved to do it, so I did. As a result, I met Father Jones, the overseer of the shelter, who was also a licensed pilot and flight instructor. When he learned that I had always dreamed of being a pilot, he offered to give me lessons for free, and help me get my license. Because I followed the spiritual guidance to volunteer at the shelter, I realized a life-long dream. This would have never happened to me, had I ignored the 'voice' and never volunteered.

 

[Onceler]

"I'm not crazy, I am not mentally unstable"

You are, though...

 

[Topspin]

I'm sticking with the famous grindage grindism "religion is for knuckledragging fraidy cats".

 

[PostmodernProphet]

Also, the vast majority of religions say that man is made in god's image.

This is something you likely believed as well up until two years ago when it wasn't convenient anymore.

???....what is it you think has made it "inconvenient"?......

 

[BRUTALITOPS]

???....what is it you think has made it "inconvenient"?......

dixie is on record admitting he "lied" about being a christian so he could engage in arguments with various members of this website. While pretending to be a christian, he referred to his christian duty, as well as argued over who was a better christian. He often referred to jesus.

Now that such silly claims are no longer useful to his purposes, he's now some type of unitarian.

 

[FUCK THE POLICE]

Wasn't that the same link that Dixie gave us?

It starts off with:

Weasel words means some of its statements are of this format "Some people think that Christian atheists...". It's not a statement that has a citation, so obviously it doesn't count. Since there are actual Christian atheists (theologian Bob Price comes to mind http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_M._Price, and there was a speaker dedicted to "Christian atheism" in Religulous), and the existence of the actual movement isn't really in question.

 

[FUCK THE POLICE]

yes, because wiki said it, it must be true....

if you actually spent 5 seconds reading the wiki entry, its clear they are not at all christians....they don't have faith, it clearly says it is not faith

just because some idiots hijacked a word doesn't make it so

They aren't idiots. Bob Price has more intelligence in his little pinky than exists in the entirety of Christendom.