Path to national suicide

On the immigration /cheap labor thing AHZ ?
Had to backtrack the thread to figure out what the heck you were referring to. I guess this is it.
I do not support cheap immigrant labor, but it is inevitable. My stating thr obvious does not mean I support that. Pluto is cold, but do I think it should be cold ? Not necessarially.
We went thru the same thing with the Irish many years ago, we survived, we will survive again. But our golden age is winding down.
You can go down kicking and screaming or trying to make the best of a bad situation , but you will go down with us all.
Global economics, "free" trade, etc guarantee that.

I guess my major malfunction is trying to explain this to a returd.
 
uscitizen said:
On the immigration /cheap labor thing AHZ ?
Had to backtrack the thread to figure out what the heck you were referring to. I guess this is it.
I do not support cheap immigrant labor, but it is inevitable. My stating thr obvious does not mean I support that. Pluto is cold, but do I think it should be cold ? Not necessarially.
We went thru the same thing with the Irish many years ago, we survived, we will survive again. But our golden age is winding down.
You can go down kicking and screaming or trying to make the best of a bad situation , but you will go down with us all.
Global economics, "free" trade, etc guarantee that.

I guess my major malfunction is trying to explain this to a returd.
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That's just a loser attitude.

It's not inevitable.

We can say no to the forces ruining america.

We can reclaim our trade policies from the corporations dictating them now.

your loserdom is not enlightenment.
 
Damocles said:
The same price controls enacted by Nixon that failed miserably and caused the whip inflation of Carter's Administration? No thank you.
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The same ones? No. Consider this, though.

What's going to happen if we somehow manage to stem the flood of illegal immigrant labor? I don't believe that it's possible to do, personally, but let's grant it for the sake of argument. Labor costs will rise, obviously, since employers will be forced to raise wages to attract U.S. citizens to these jobs. In addition, we'll have greatly increased costs of enforcement, both at the border and at millions of job sites all over the United States.

Now, what's going to happen if we simply force employers to pay a higher wage from the outset? Labor costs will rise, just as in the other scenario, and more American citizens will be attracted to these service industry jobs. It's possible that labor costs will rise even more this way but, on the other hand, the costs of enforcement would not rise so dramatically.

Either way, you get higher prices. Not so much higher as some of the doomsday prophets would have it, since labor costs are only a small percentage of the cost of food production, but clearly some higher prices. Yet my preferred way of doing it does not increase the bureaucratic overhead anywhere near so drastically.
 
OrnotBitwise said:
The same ones? No. Consider this, though.

What's going to happen if we somehow manage to stem the flood of illegal immigrant labor? I don't believe that it's possible to do, personally, but let's grant it for the sake of argument. Labor costs will rise, obviously, since employers will be forced to raise wages to attract U.S. citizens to these jobs. In addition, we'll have greatly increased costs of enforcement, both at the border and at millions of job sites all over the United States.

Now, what's going to happen if we simply force employers to pay a higher wage from the outset? Labor costs will rise, just as in the other scenario, and more American citizens will be attracted to these service industry jobs. It's possible that labor costs will rise even more this way but, on the other hand, the costs of enforcement would not rise so dramatically.

Either way, you get higher prices. Not so much higher as some of the doomsday prophets would have it, since labor costs are only a small percentage of the cost of food production, but clearly some higher prices. Yet my preferred way of doing it does not increase the bureaucratic overhead anywhere near so drastically.
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If we let them all in and set wage controls, employers will hire fewer of them, and there just will be a massive unemployment problem. Or, all thing being equal, they may just go ahead and hire english speakers, thus, still massive unemployment.

And a kickass fence and machine gun turrets is not as expensive as you think.
 
Ornot, the admirable part is that he believes strongly enough in his beliefs to pursue them. I agree that is is a bad thing for the country, but then that is one of the downfalls of living in a psuedo democracy.
 
uscitizen said:
Ornot, the admirable part is that he believes strongly enough in his beliefs to pursue them. I agree that is is a bad thing for the country, but then that is one of the downfalls of living in a psuedo democracy.
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You're more charitable than I, alas. Personally, I believe that anyone who thinks with their balls needs to have them cut off. They'll probably still be stupid but at least less likely to pass their stupidity along to the next generation.

;)
 
OrnotBitwise said:
The same ones? No. Consider this, though.

What's going to happen if we somehow manage to stem the flood of illegal immigrant labor? I don't believe that it's possible to do, personally, but let's grant it for the sake of argument. Labor costs will rise, obviously, since employers will be forced to raise wages to attract U.S. citizens to these jobs. In addition, we'll have greatly increased costs of enforcement, both at the border and at millions of job sites all over the United States.

Now, what's going to happen if we simply force employers to pay a higher wage from the outset? Labor costs will rise, just as in the other scenario, and more American citizens will be attracted to these service industry jobs. It's possible that labor costs will rise even more this way but, on the other hand, the costs of enforcement would not rise so dramatically.

Either way, you get higher prices. Not so much higher as some of the doomsday prophets would have it, since labor costs are only a small percentage of the cost of food production, but clearly some higher prices. Yet my preferred way of doing it does not increase the bureaucratic overhead anywhere near so drastically.
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I have no problem forcing them to pay higher wages at the outset, but I prefer to do it by opening the border to legal entry so that we can vet the entry and know who is here and why. We also need a stronger extradition where people who run there to avoid death penalty cases are brought back here without having to go through several million hoops so that many of them still walk free in Mexido.

The idea that the only effect will be on the labor market is short-sighted.

Legal entry will allow them to demand wages higher than before, and they would. We would know who was here, this is also good... Especially when reports are that there have been Iraqis and others caught at that border.

But regardless of all of that, the main thing to begin with is the porous border, ignoring it while passing amnesty only increases the tide, it will never stem it.
 
OrnotBitwise said:
You're more charitable than I, alas. Personally, I believe that anyone who thinks with their balls needs to have them cut off. They'll probably still be stupid but at least less likely to pass their stupidity along to the next generation.

;)
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Darn good point, but most of the youth "think with their balls", I know I did all to much of that and I was not nearly as bad as most.
Some of the youth recover, the rest become Republicans.
 
Damocles said:
I have no problem forcing them to pay higher wages at the outset, but I prefer to do it by opening the border to legal entry so that we can vet the entry and know who is here and why. We also need a stronger extradition where people who run there to avoid death penalty cases are brought back here without having to go through several million hoops so that many of them still walk free in Mexido.

The idea that the only effect will be on the labor market is short-sighted.

Legal entry will allow them to demand wages higher than before, and they would. We would know who was here, this is also good... Especially when reports are that there have been Iraqis and others caught at that border.

But regardless of all of that, the main thing to begin with is the porous border, ignoring it while passing amnesty only increases the tide, it will never stem it.
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I have yet to see any really practical alternative to some sort of amnesty. The alternatives are all Draconian and hideously expensive. Even if you call them humane -- which I don't -- they're still prohibitively costly.
 
OrnotBitwise said:
I have yet to see any really practical alternative to some sort of amnesty. The alternatives are all Draconian and hideously expensive. Even if you call them humane -- which I don't -- they're still prohibitively costly.
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I have no problem with the amnesty as well, it is FIRST THE BORDER, that people seem to ignore.

It is ignoring what I say for what you want to hear to say I object only to that when I make it clear I have no problem with legal entry, would like to open immigration rules to make it easier to do that, and want only to close the back door by which we currently get entry.

If we do nothing about the border first, grant amnesty, we will simply raise the numbers who will enter and have need of still another future amnesty all the while ignoring a security threat, and actually exacerbating that threat, to the nation that happens to be fighting, or supposedly fighting, a war on "terror".
 
OrnotBitwise said:
You're more charitable than I, alas. Personally, I believe that anyone who thinks with their balls needs to have them cut off. They'll probably still be stupid but at least less likely to pass their stupidity along to the next generation.

;)
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I don't think with my balls, I merely possess them. I disagree with your belief that americans have no right to enforce their border to protect their labor market.

It's funny you believe in price controls and and an artificially inflated minimum wage, but if we instituted this, the force pulling them here would be negated.


obviously you believe in quoting the "free market" propaganda to get them here, and then switching tactics and pushing for socialistic memes once you have enough underclass votes. this won't happen though. They will be denied access to the social programs, as per the new legislation. they will be a new permanent underclass. And the americans who should be doing the work, will be on the dole, dependant. It's a double whammy of totalitarianism: dependance, and exploitation all at once.
 
Damocles said:
I have no problem with the amnesty as well, it is FIRST THE BORDER, that people seem to ignore.

It is ignoring what I say for what you want to hear to say I object only to that when I make it clear I have no problem with legal entry, would like to open immigration rules to make it easier to do that, and want only to close the back door by which we currently get entry.

If we do nothing about the border first, grant amnesty, we will simply raise the numbers who will enter and have need of still another future amnesty all the while ignoring a security threat, and actually exacerbating that threat, to the nation that happens to be fighting, or supposedly fighting, a war on "terror".
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Do what at the border, exactly?

Increase the number of border patrol agents? Fine: I agree with that. The money's got to come from somewhere though. I'd pull it from DoD, but that's predictable.

Build some dumbass wall? Forget it. That's just throwing good money down the drain. May as well buy everyone a sailboat.
 
OrnotBitwise said:
Do what at the border, exactly?

Increase the number of border patrol agents? Fine: I agree with that. The money's got to come from somewhere though. I'd pull it from DoD, but that's predictable.

Build some dumbass wall? Forget it. That's just throwing good money down the drain. May as well buy everyone a sailboat.
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Opening up legal entry will help on this. Actually enforcing laws on illegal entry against those who hire them will as well. Supporting the border patrol with numbers and action such as that would go a long way to ending the illegal entry while enhancing the option of legally entering.

I do like the idea of a solid SS card system checkable against the database that employers are forced to use rather than "voluntarily" use with serious consequences for those who attempt to skirt the law.
 
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