Should the US become a democracy?

[BidenPresident]

That is a surprise to James Madison who is the Father of the Constitution and specifically sought to prevent a democracy.

Cite Madison saying he wants to prevent a democracy.

 

[Nordberg]

WRONG. The United States is a federated republic. It is not a democracy.
'Constitutional republic' is redundant. A republic is government by constitution. Democracies have no constitutions or representatives.

It is true, strictly speaking.

WRONG. The Constitutions of this country determine how elections are conducted.

That's exactly what it does. It gives the smaller States a voice in selecting the President and Vice-President.

Or Wyoming and most other States being overshadowed by the SOTC or New York.

Presentism fallacy. It is not archaic, and neither is anything else in the Constitution. You are trying to destroy the Constitution.

The President is not elected by popular vote.

We the People do not vote for President. States legislatures do. See the Constitution of the United States.

The President is not elected by popular vote. The electoral college has not yet voted. That takes place on Jan 6th, and must conform to the Constitution. Enough States have filed Contested that there is no required Majority of the electoral college. This then turns to the House, following the procedures outlined in the 12th amendment.

You don't get to destroy the Constitution and then say you support the Constitution.

Changing voting would not destroy the constitution. That was wrong, The constitution has legal methods to change it. We have 27 times. Did each one destroy the constitution? If changing it has destroyed it, why do you care. It is already destroyed many times. That made no sense.
The point of the thread is about removing the electoral college. It would require constitutional means. The EC is a bad system. It allows a tyranny of the minority. You like that the minority runs the country.

 

[Flash]

Cite Madison saying he wants to prevent a democracy.

Read Federalist #10. He says the main purpose of government is to "control factions" and he rejects democracy because the majority always wins. He chooses a republic as the best way to do what is in the best interests of all the people rather than the controlling faction.

 

[BidenPresident]

Read Federalist #10. He says the main purpose of government is to "control factions" and he rejects democracy because the majority always wins. He chooses a republic as the best way to do what is in the best interests of all the people rather than the controlling faction.

I've read Federatlst #10. By "factions" he is referring to modern political parties.

 

[Into the Night]

Some would prob support a monarchy if trump would be the king............

Trump does not support a monarchy, dictatorship, or oligarchy. Neither does any conservative.

But that is perhaps another thread......

No. It is on this thread. You brought it up here.

Personally I would prefer a parliamentary system-no winner take all & the power to call for early elections & no confidence votes rather than impeachment...

You don't get to just throw away the Constitution. You are not the king.

Israel is a dot on the map w/ several parties to chose from, we are many, many times larger & have only two choices for the most part/for many..

You are forgetting about the Socialist party, the Green party, the Libertarian party, and a whole host of smaller parties.

Those two self dealing/self serving parties control the process in every state, county/city....... They connive to undermine any challengers to their monopoly......

Nope. The election process is defined in the constitutions in each layer of government.

They are not embedded in the constitution but they are in our asses & heads........

The election process IS embedded in the constitution for offices in that layer of government.

They are the major problems in every major category....

Okay. Let's look at some:

Fiat money, now losing it's value. Issued by an institution called the Federal Reserve. Founded by Democrats.
Attempting to redefine gender to the point it h as no meaning anymore, and including so-called 'gay marriage'. Democrats.
Environmental 'protection' laws, that do nothing for the environment but are designed to oppress business activity. Democrats.
Dictats on what light bulb you are allowed to buy, what toilet you are allowed to install, how much water you are allowed to use, what kind of car you are allowed to buy. Democrats.
Dictats on whether you have to wear a mask, how far apart you have to be from someone else, and shutting down many businesses as 'non-essential'. Democrats.
Implementing policies in cities that condone crime, defund the police, condone homelessness...Democrats.
Arson, pillaging, assaults, murders by violent thugs in the streets. Democrats.
Funding and supporting illegal immigration. Democrats.
High taxes and oppressive regulations. Democrats.
Schools that teach sex education to kindergarten children. Democrats.
Illiteracy in our schools because of poor curriculum, defined by the NEA. Democrats.
Making up fundamentalist religions like the Church of Global Warming, the Church of Green, and the Church of the Ozone Hole, and making them state religions. Democrats.
Creating 'Gun Free Zones', allowing mass shootings to occur there. Democrats.
Limiting and banning guns and other weapons. Democrats.
Attempting to form lists of dissidents and locking dissidents up. Democrats.
Turning every construction job into a tangle of red tape and conflicting regulations. Democrats.
Causing crop failures due to lack of irrigation water so a shrimp can be saved. Democrats.
Preventing the clearing of brush or the management of forest resources, causing massive wildfires. Democrats.
Massive election fraud through the use of fake ballots, illegally changed election law by dictat, and the use of programmable machines instead of tabulators. Democrats.
Banning oil, coal, and natural gas and manipulating energy markets. Democrats.
Money laundering schemes. Democrats.
Forcing business to comply with a particular religion. Democrats.
Faking data, such as the temperature of Earth, the global atmospheric CO2 content of Earth, the global sea level, the global precipitation, the temperature of ocean water, the pH of ocean water, the number of covid19 cases, the number of covid19 deaths, the sturdiness of condor eggs, etc. Democrats.
The banning of internal combustion engines and the cars, trucks, trains, ships, and aircraft that depend on them. Democrats.
The inability to produce sufficient electrical power or have sufficient water supplies. Democrats.
The annual attempts to ban or belittle Christmas, Easter, Independence Day, Thanksgiving, Hanukkah, etc. Democrats.
Being forced to hire unqualified people and practice racism in businesses to prevent racism. Democrats.
Banning dissident opinions on social media sites. Democrats.
A Drug War that has utterly failed. Democrats.
Taking property to save a common owl. Democrats.
Pyramid schemes like Social Security and State Lotteries. Democrats.
Describe people that put up Christmas lights, wear a Hawaiian shirts, or carry a gun as 'racist'. Democrats.
Claim to see the future using magick prediction methods such as Holy Polls, Holy Gas, Holy Government 'Data', Holy Web Sites, or other Holy Oracle. Democrats.
Segregation. Democrats.
Slavery. Democrats.
Banning meat or other food. Democrats.
Requiring restaurants to serve certain foods (or else!). Democrats.
Banning certain chemicals and processes causing inferior paints and foams, less effective air conditioning systems that are more expensive, and pesticides and fertilizers, making farming more expensive. Democrats.
The Columbia Shuttle crash, caused by such defective foam, Democrats.
Price control laws that never work including Wage controls such as minimum wage laws and 'fair' wage laws, Gasoline price controls, rent controls, interest rate controls, etc. Democrats.

Shall I go on?

 

[Into the Night]

Good point. The popular vote should determine the Presidency. Electoral College is like demanding we ride horses instead of cars.

Presentism fallacy.

 

[Flash]

I've read Federatlst #10. By "factions" he is referring to modern political parties.

It is broader than parties, it is any interest group:

"By a faction, I understand a number of citizens, whether amounting to a majority or minority of the whole, who are united and actuated by some common impulse of passion, or of interest, adverse to the rights of other citizens, or to the permanent and aggregate interest of the community."

 

[BidenPresident]

It is broader than parties, it is any interest group:

"By a faction, I understand a number of citizens, whether amounting to a majority or minority of the whole, who are united and actuated by some common impulse of passion, or of interest, adverse to the rights of other citizens, or to the permanent and aggregate interest of the community."

Sounds like he's describing Trump and the GOP.

 

[Into the Night]

I took your advice and this is what popped up:

"Voter ID laws deprive many voters of their right to vote, reduce participation, and stand in direct opposition to our country’s trend of including more Americans in the democratic process. Many Americans do not have one of the forms of identification states acceptable for voting. These voters are disproportionately low-income, racial and ethnic minorities, the elderly, and people with disabilities. Such voters more frequently have difficulty obtaining ID, because they cannot afford or cannot obtain the underlying documents that are a prerequisite to obtaining government-issued photo ID card."
https://www.aclu.org/other/oppose-voter-id-legislation-fact-sheet

Seems like there should be some way to make Voter ID easy and assessable to those that need it.

I also googled 'Earl, CountryBoy, and Legina' ... and yes, they all belonged to the 'Dinky Penis' web site. (just because it's a meme, doesn't mean it's true of ALL Red Team)

It already is.

 

[Flash]

Sounds like he's describing Trump and the GOP.

That is why he opposed democracy--so that no faction could gain control of government. He tried to fragment governmental power as much as possible--separation of powers, checks and balances, separation of constituency, different terms of office, different methods of selection....

These safeguards prevented Trump from completing some of his policies.

 

[BidenPresident]

That is why he opposed democracy--so that no faction could gain control of government. He tried to fragment governmental power as much as possible--separation of powers, checks and balances, separation of constituency, different terms of office, different methods of selection....

These safeguards prevented Trump from completing some of his policies.

Trump was properly impeached. He should have been removed from office. Trump was a neo-fascist and would be dictator.

 

[Flash]

Trump was properly impeached. He should have been removed from office. Trump was a neo-fascist and would be dictator.

Those are the safeguards made possible in a republic. Impeachment is just the first part of the process. 2/3 of the Senate did not believe Trump (or Clinton, or Johnson) should be convicted.

 

[BidenPresident]

Those are the safeguards made possible in a republic. Impeachment is just the first part of the process. 2/3 of the Senate did not believe Trump (or Clinton, or Johnson) should be convicted.

I see. You think a republic is a wholly other thing than a democracy. Like saying it's not the ocean, it's the sea.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

It is broader than parties, it is any interest group:

"By a faction, I understand a number of citizens, whether amounting to a majority or minority of the whole, who are united and actuated by some common impulse of passion, or of interest, adverse to the rights of other citizens, or to the permanent and aggregate interest of the community."

Agreed. Antifa, Tea Party, NRA, BLM, etc. Everybody wants a piece.

 

[Flash]

I see. You think a republic is a wholly other thing than a democracy. Like saying it's not the ocean, it's the sea.

Not wholly, but it has important differences. Over the years the U. S. has evolved into a more democratic system than the original constitution.

 

[Bubba]

Which is one reason I support Abortion. Do you support abortion, Bubba? Help cut down on those "parasites" you are complaining about?

Why do you put the word parasites in quote marks?? What term would you use to refer to people who make a living by pumping out baby after baby after baby??

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Why do you put the word parasites in quote marks?? What term would you use to refer to people who make a living by pumping out baby after baby after baby??

Why are you running from the fucking question, Bubba? Cognitive dissonance a problem for you?

Do you support the right of abortion for the people you are referencing? Yes or no, please.

 

[Into the Night]

Appears "birdman" is totally confused again, a Constitution, any Constitution, is the framework of the Government, democracy is the ideology upon which that Constitution, our Constitution, is based.

Democracies have no constitutions.

A republic is the system of government that allows a country to be democratic

Paradox.

Really not all that difficult

Apparently it is for you.

 

[Into the Night]

Cite Madison saying he wants to prevent a democracy.

You might try reading the Federalist papers. However, it really makes little difference. The United States is not a democracy. It is a federated republic. Democracies have no constitution nor representatives.

 

[Into the Night]

Changing voting would not destroy the constitution.

Yes it does, if not done as a constitution amendment.

That was wrong, The constitution has legal methods to change it.

Yes. It's called a constitutional amendment. Election laws were changed WITHOUT authorization from the legislature of that State nor by any amendment.

We have 27 times.

Contextomy fallacy. Argument from randU fallacy. There are not 27 amendments changing election law in the United States.

Did each one destroy the constitution?

Contextomy fallacy.

If changing it has destroyed it, why do you care.

I choose to uphold the Constitution of the United States.

It is already destroyed many times. That made no sense.

Paradox. Irrational statement.

The point of the thread is about removing the electoral college.

Why?

It would require constitutional means.

No. It would require and amendment.

The EC is a bad system.

Why?

It allows a tyranny of the minority.

Minority is not a tyranny.

You like that the minority runs the country.

It doesn't, but they do have a say, despite a majority.

The United States is not a democracy.