Which is it?

ThatOwlWoman said:
The problem happens when religion and politics mix. It only produces a toxic, freedom-reducing, poison that kills democracy.
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I think you are right.

But it's complicated. Joe Biden, a practicing Catholic, is known to have said that his politics are based on his values. And many of his values are based on his Christian faith. The social welfare state in North America and Europe goes all the way back to the Christian humanism and Christian socialism of the 19th century.

I am certain Martin Luther King's advocacy for civil rights laws was rooted in his Christianity. Many of his famous speeches are basically sermons.

So I have been thinking that separation of politics and religion is a more complicated question than a black and white question
 
Cypress said:
We don't know where the physical laws and mathmatical organization of the universe come from, or why they are so precisely balanced to allow for atomic matter and complex chemistry to exist. So while I certainly believe there is a mathmatical scaffolding to the universe, I don't know why that is.

I think empirical evidence is important, but I don't think all knowledge comes empirically.
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Recognizing facts are one thing, postulating their origin is another.

The fact the Universe is, indeed, orderly is both interesting and expected since we couldn't exist if it wasn't. A truly chaotic universe would be impossible for life to survive. What would happen is gravity just randomly stopped working? That electrons just suddenly left their nucleus at random times?
 
Cypress said:
I think you are right.

But it's complicated. Joe Biden, a practicing Catholic, is known to have said that his politics are based on his values. And many of his values are based on his Christian faith. The social welfare state in North America and Europe goes all the way back to the Christian humanism and Christian socialism of the 19th century.

I am certain Martin Luther King's advocacy for civil rights laws was rooted in his Christianity. Many of his famous speeches are basically sermons.

So I have been thinking that separation of politics and religion is a more complicated question than a black and white question
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Abolitionism was rooted in Christianity.

americainclass.org

The Religious Roots of Abolition – America in Class – resources for history & literature teachers from the National Humanities Center

How did American Christians in the nineteenth century come to see slavery as something that needed to be abolished?
americainclass.org americainclass.org
Christianity was a central feature of nineteenth-century American life for both slaveholders and anti-slavery activists. To argue persuasively against slavery, abolitionists had to find ways to use the Bible and Christian tradition, along with American patriotic and domestic ideals, to make their case.

Christian abolitionism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
Although many Enlightenment philosophers opposed slavery, it was Christian activists, attracted by strong religious elements, who initiated and organized an abolitionist movement. Throughout Europe and the United States, Christians, usually from "un-institutional" Christian faith movements, not directly connected with traditional state churches, or "non-conformist" believers within established churches, were to be found at the forefront of the abolitionist movements.
 
Cypress said:
I think you are right.

But it's complicated. Joe Biden, a practicing Catholic, is known to have said that his politics are based on his values. And many of his values are based on his Christian faith. The social welfare state in North America and Europe goes all the way back to the Christian humanism and Christian socialism of the 19th century.

I am certain Martin Luther King's advocacy for civil rights laws was rooted in his Christianity. Many of his famous speeches are basically sermons.

So I have been thinking that separation of politics and religion is a more complicated question than a black and white question
Click to expand...
When religious people in positions of political power start insisting that we must all follow what they personally believe, we have a problem. You mentioned Biden, who is a devout practicing Catholic. His religion teaches that abortion is a mortal sin. Yet he does not insist, as POTUS, that we ban abortion. There's plenty of (R) fascist politicians, however, who *would* make it a criminal offense based on their religious views. Ditto for SSM, and for homosexuality in general.

A lot of these religionists feel fearful and angry at those who don't share their beliefs. Fearful and angry people can be dangerous.
 
Commander Dutch said:
Abolitionism was rooted in Christianity.

americainclass.org

The Religious Roots of Abolition – America in Class – resources for history & literature teachers from the National Humanities Center

How did American Christians in the nineteenth century come to see slavery as something that needed to be abolished?
americainclass.org americainclass.org
Christianity was a central feature of nineteenth-century American life for both slaveholders and anti-slavery activists. To argue persuasively against slavery, abolitionists had to find ways to use the Bible and Christian tradition, along with American patriotic and domestic ideals, to make their case.

Christian abolitionism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
Although many Enlightenment philosophers opposed slavery, it was Christian activists, attracted by strong religious elements, who initiated and organized an abolitionist movement. Throughout Europe and the United States, Christians, usually from "un-institutional" Christian faith movements, not directly connected with traditional state churches, or "non-conformist" believers within established churches, were to be found at the forefront of the abolitionist movements.
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Good point.

On the one hand, I don't want to draw a line in the sand and say someone's religious values can never inform their politics, because of the wonderful examples of William Lloyd Garrison and Martin Luther King Jr.

On the other hand we don't need anyone forcing mandatory school prayer and total abortion bans on us.

The irony is that it took the atheist Donald Trump to finally succeed in getting women's reproductive freedom curtailed.
 
ThatOwlWoman said:
When religious people in positions of political power start insisting that we must all follow what they personally believe, we have a problem. You mentioned Biden, who is a devout practicing Catholic. His religion teaches that abortion is a mortal sin. Yet he does not insist, as POTUS, that we ban abortion. There's plenty of (R) fascist politicians, however, who *would* make it a criminal offense based on their religious views. Ditto for SSM, and for homosexuality in general.

A lot of these religionists feel fearful and angry at those who don't share their beliefs. Fearful and angry people can be dangerous.
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Well said.

On the one hand, I don't want to draw a line in the sand and say someone's religious values can never inform their politics, because of the wonderful examples of William Lloyd Garrison and Martin Luther King Jr.

On the other hand we don't need anyone forcing mandatory school prayer and total abortion bans on us.

The irony is that it took the atheist Donald Trump to finally succeed in getting women's reproductive freedom curtailed
 
Commander Dutch said:
Perspective is important. Some people believe in magic, fortune telling and magical creatures. I believe in the laws of the Universe. Two different perspectives, but only one has evidence behind it proving it to be correct.
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bring it back to earth, space cowboy.

religion is ultimately about getting along.

you have no insight into that besides "kill them all".
 
Commander Dutch said:
Recognizing facts are one thing, postulating their origin is another.

The fact the Universe is, indeed, orderly is both interesting and expected since we couldn't exist if it wasn't. A truly chaotic universe would be impossible for life to survive. What would happen is gravity just randomly stopped working? That electrons just suddenly left their nucleus at random times?
Click to expand...
Nice work.

From a standpoint of probability, the presice balancing of the mathmatical properties of nature to allow for complex matter and chemical structure is implausible. Unless the physical properties can take different values elsewhere in the universe, and we just happen to be in the sweet spot where the perfect storm converged.


Regarding your last statement: the forces holding subatomic particles together are barely influenced at all by gravity, which is many, many orders of magnitude weaker than the electromagnetic and nuclear forces.

It's really the Higgs field that is responsible for the cohesion of atomic matter. Complex matter as we know it wouldn't exist without the Higgs field.
 
Cypress said:
Good point.

On the one hand, I don't want to draw a line in the sand and say someone's religious values can never inform their politics, because of the wonderful examples of William Lloyd Garrison and Martin Luther King Jr.

On the other hand we don't need anyone forcing mandatory school prayer and total abortion bans on us.

The irony is that it took the atheist Donald Trump to finally succeed in getting women's reproductive freedom curtailed.
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do you support abortion up until the day of birth?
 
Commander Dutch said:
Soooo.....60 years later you're still pissed about it? WTF? I spent a lot of time in DOD schools; desegregated and dereligioned. <---if that's a word.
Upon return from a 3 year life in Germany, I was enrolled with my cousin in a small public school for the last 6 weeks of the First Grade. The school was so small that the classrooms formed a border around a small gym on three sides and had a stage on the fourth side. After morning assembly in the classroom we all gathered in the gym to recite the Pledge of Allegiance...which I knew. Then they recited the Lord's Prayer which I didn't. I faked moving my lips and, in adult terms, was wondering what the fuck? FWIW, I only partially learned the Lord's Prayer just to get by.

Again, your anger. Again, I'm ambivalent. It was after all, 60 fucking years ago. Get a grip, Domer. Lots of shit has changed since those days. I was more concerned about getting nuked.

Again, you act like this is a Catholic country with a national religion instead of seeing things clearly for what they are. Yes, there are people as you describe, but as proved since Trump' SCOTUS ended Roe V. Wade, most American disagree with both the anti-abortion Alt-Righties and your view of America. FWIW, the difference between you and them is narrowing since both of you seek to impose your beliefs upon others.
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Reading comprehension is not your strong suit. I’m sure you have other sterling virtues, though.
 
Cypress said:
Nice work.

From a standpoint of probability, the presice balancing of the mathmatical properties of nature to allow for complex matter and chemical structure is implausible. Unless the physical properties can take different values elsewhere in the universe, and we just happen to be in the sweet spot where the perfect storm converged.


Regarding your last statement: the forces holding subatomic particles together are barely influenced at all by gravity, which is many, many orders of magnitude weaker than the electromagnetic and nuclear forces.

It's really the Higgs field that is responsible for the cohesion of atomic matter. Complex matter as we know it wouldn't exist without the Higgs field.
Click to expand...
Science is not religion, though morality is rational.
 
ThatOwlWoman said:
When religious people in positions of political power start insisting that we must all follow what they personally believe, we have a problem. You mentioned Biden, who is a devout practicing Catholic. His religion teaches that abortion is a mortal sin. Yet he does not insist, as POTUS, that we ban abortion. There's plenty of (R) fascist politicians, however, who *would* make it a criminal offense based on their religious views. Ditto for SSM, and for homosexuality in general.

A lot of these religionists feel fearful and angry at those who don't share their beliefs. Fearful and angry people can be dangerous.
Click to expand...
Exactly, hence the long precedent of the Separation of Church and State. It was the Republican Party that started moving to dissolve that separation when Reagan allowed Jerry Falwell's Christian Coalition a major vote in the Party. Sarah Palin famously stated the Constitution should be based upon the Bible to loud applause of anti-Constitution Republicans. The MAGAts still support this idea with Trump using police and tear gas to clear the streets so he could take a photo op in front of St. John's Episcopal Church....which he didn't enter for obvious reasons. LOL

theweek.com

Sarah Palin: Base law on the Bible

Palin's latest declaration — that America's law should be explicitly based on the Ten Commandments — is confounding critics
theweek.com theweek.com

www.thenation.com

Palin and the Christian Right

Sarah Palin breathes new life into the religious right's vitiated political movement.
www.thenation.com www.thenation.com

people.com

Donald Trump Poses with a Bible at Church Photo Op After Police Clear His Path Using Tear Gas

President Donald Trump is facing criticism after he was photographed holding a Bible during a photo op in Washington, D.C., ⁠on Monday — just after police cleared his route from protesters using tear gas and flash grenades.
people.com people.com
 
PostmodernProphet said:
it is legal in Michigan......
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That's not what I asked.

I asked for examples of real cases of it happening.

Assuming you are not misrepresenting the intent of the law, I can't see any sane doctor performing an abortion on a healthy baby a day before it is due to be born, unless the mother's life is in danger.
 
domer76 said:
As I continue my readings, I came across a word I was not familiar with. Henotheism. Many gods, but recognize a top god to worship.

That’s Christianity. Or it could even be considered polytheistic.

It certainly is a far cry from monotheistic.
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Gods are what people who didn't now how to explain the unknown came up with.

The concept is an invention of humans.

Not surprisingly, gods are focused on humans.

Such hubris.
 
domer76 said:
WTF?
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The poster has a very bad habit of running up against Godwin's Law. I find it best to just ignore them unless you just feel in a pissy mood as I sometimes do. At that point I will "engage" their stupid points but for real conversation steer clear.
 
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