Would the US be better off without the South?

Should we let the South succeed?

  • Total voters
    16
  • Poll closed .
Mott the Hoople said:
Don't know the age of the data for this but 2010 data ranks michigan at 42.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_GDP
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This is 2012, all 57 states ;)

http://www.bea.gov/iTable/iTable.cf...002=1&7090=70&7004=NAICS&7005=101&7093=Levels


1 District of Columbia 145663
2 Delaware 61183
3 Alaska 61156
4 North Dakota 55250
5 Connecticut 54925
6 Wyoming 54305
7 Massachusetts 53221
8 New York 53067
9 Mideast 49580
10 New England 49519
11 New Jersey 49430
12 Oregon 48069
13 Washington 47146
14 Virginia 47127
15 Minnesota 47028
16 Maryland 46720
17 Texas 46498
18 Colorado 46242
19 Far West 46211
20 Illinois 46151
21 California 46029
22 Nebraska 44943
23 Hawaii 44442
24 South Dakota 43181
25 Louisiana 43145
26 New Hampshire 42958
27 Southwest 42880
28 United States 42784
29 Plains 42465
30 Iowa 42222
31 Rhode Island 41678
32 Rocky Mountain 41677
33 Kansas 41070
34 Nevada 41029
35 North Carolina 40289
36 Pennsylvania 40063
37 Great Lakes 39919
38 Wisconsin 39308
39 Utah 39158
40 Indiana 39065
41 Vermont 38198
42 Georgia 37702
43 Ohio 37690
44 Tennessee 37254
45 Southeast 36961
46 Missouri 36815
47 Oklahoma 36252
48 Michigan 35298
49 Arizona 35195
50 Florida 34802
51 Maine 34597
52 New Mexico 33900
53 Kentucky 33519
54 Montana 33204
55 Alabama 32615
56 Idaho 31945
57 South Carolina 31881
58 Arkansas 31837
59 West Virginia 30389
60 Mississippi 28944
 
Mott the Hoople said:
In wages/salaries UAW workers make slightly less than private sector auto workers in the south. In total compensation (health benefits, retirement, vacation time, etc) UAW workers make a total compensation of around $40/hr and southern non Union Auto Workers in the south have a total compensation of around $30/hour. Why do they earn more than their southern counterparts? Because they're better educated and more productive and the GDP numbers bear that out.
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1) They are not better educated simply because they earn more. You forget the cost of living in the south is cheaper on average than the north.
2) GDP numbers of who? Show me the GDP numbers of the auto sector in each state you are referring to.
3) Now show the productivity numbers.

You are simply pulling shit out of your ass.
 
And by region:

1 Mideast 49580
2 New England 49519
3 Far West 46211
4 Southwest 42880
5 United States 42784
6 Plains 42465
7 Rocky Mountain 41677
8 Great Lakes 39919
9 Southeast 36961
 
Mott the Hoople said:
Cause the North East, (including the great lakes region) has a geographic size and population very similiar in size to the South but the North East GDP is nearly double that of the South (NE GDP = $5.04 trillion vs South $2.79 Trillion) . Meaning in cold, stark, objective terms, we're nearly twice as productive as they are and would probably be even more productive if it wasn't for the fact that we have to prop up the South annually with about 25% of our regions Federal Tax dollers cause their too pigheaded to invest in their own communities and have fallen behind the rest of the nation educationally and economically.
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Show me the GDP per capita.

As for your federal tax dollar crap... it is simply because the North are a bunch of dumbasses that have jacked up their cost of living so high that they have to get paid higher amounts for the same standard of living. The higher the amounts, the greater their taxes. But they are too stupid to realize that.
 
Superfreak said:
Show me the GDP per capita.

As for your federal tax dollar crap... it is simply because the North are a bunch of dumbasses that have jacked up their cost of living so high that they have to get paid higher amounts for the same standard of living. The higher the amounts, the greater their taxes. But they are too stupid to realize that.
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1. I just did.

2. You are correct on the cost of living. Huge difference here. My property taxes are less than 1/3 what I paid in NY, and I get better services.
 
Mott the Hoople said:
Cause the North East, (including the great lakes region) has a geographic size and population very similiar in size to the South but the North East GDP is nearly double that of the South (NE GDP = $5.04 trillion vs South $2.79 Trillion) . Meaning in cold, stark, objective terms, we're nearly twice as productive as they are and would probably be even more productive if it wasn't for the fact that we have to prop up the South annually with about 25% of our regions Federal Tax dollers cause their too pigheaded to invest in their own communities and have fallen behind the rest of the nation educationally and economically.
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You do realize that 8 of the nations top 10 busiest seaports are south of the mason dixon right?
 
DamnYankee said:
1. I just did.

2. You are correct on the cost of living. Huge difference here. My property taxes are less than 1/3 what I paid in NY, and I get better services.
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Thank you for pointing that out. That's because you don't support your community as we do here in the North. This is exactly the kind of free loading and lack of values that keeps the South poorer and less educated than the North.

Here in the north we invest in our communities. We invest in public education and public safety in our communities. Ya'll don't. In the north you'll typicall pay 4 times as much in property taxes as you do down south and the results show. God help a kid who has to start off life in this nation handicapped by a public education in Mississippi, Alabama, West Virginia, Louisianna or Arkansas. All of which have the lowest academic achievement scores in the US (With props to Arkansas who has made a very serious effort at reform).

All the bloviating about the decline and privatization in our Public schools. The fact is the schools in the south are pretty much just a segregated as they were 50 years ago. Only now no reasonably propserous white person sends their kids to public schools. They send them to private schools. Then they undermine the financial basis of public education (one of this nations singular great accomplishments. Universal public education) in a manner that hurts blacks, poor whites and other minorities than they have the unmitigated gall to expect us to pay for their failing public school and then have the audacity to ask us tax payers up north to subsidize not only their kids education in private schools but to fund their failing public schools. It would be laughable if it wasn't for so many kids are being hurt by this vicious and vindictive attitudes towards minorities and poor whites that they have in the south.

Why it's simply just not a northern value. We care about our kids. We care deeply about their education to the tune of the 4 times as much as we pay in community support. And let me tell you, when you want to see where a persons or societies value are just watch where they spend their money!

If you want to see where the education gap with our foreign competition in science and math begins you have to go no further than drive across the I-75 bridge from Cincinnati into Petersburg, Kentucky. That's where the South begins geographically, culturally and educationally.

Right now were going through a stage of home taught morons in the south that's going to jump and bite us in the ass when they grow up to be slack jawed morons who can't hold a job.
 
Mott the Hoople said:
Thank you for pointing that out. That's because you don't support your community as we do here in the North. This is exactly the kind of free loading and lack of values that keeps the South poorer and less educated than the North.

Here in the north we invest in our communities. We invest in public education and public safety in our communities. Ya'll don't. In the north you'll typicall pay 4 times as much in property taxes as you do down south and the results show. God help a kid who has to start off life in this nation handicapped by a public education in Mississippi, Alabama, West Virginia, Louisianna or Arkansas. All of which have the lowest academic achievement scores in the US (With props to Arkansas who has made a very serious effort at reform).
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Public safety like in Chicago, Detroit, Philly, NYC, DC etc... those wonderful public safety programs?

Like I said, you have that elitist attitude thinking you are somehow better. Yet you live in Ohio... the cesspool of the nation... and you stay there by choice. So you really shouldn't be commenting on the intelligence of others.

You still have shown nothing to show the southern products are 'second rate'...
 
Mott the Hoople said:
Thank you for pointing that out. That's because you don't support your community as we do here in the North. This is exactly the kind of free loading and lack of values that keeps the South poorer and less educated than the North.

Here in the north we invest in our communities. We invest in public education and public safety in our communities. Ya'll don't. In the north you'll typicall pay 4 times as much in property taxes as you do down south and the results show. God help a kid who has to start off life in this nation handicapped by a public education in Mississippi, Alabama, West Virginia, Louisianna or Arkansas. All of which have the lowest academic achievement scores in the US (With props to Arkansas who has made a very serious effort at reform).

All the bloviating about the decline and privatization in our Public schools. The fact is the schools in the south are pretty much just a segregated as they were 50 years ago. Only now no reasonably propserous white person sends their kids to public schools. They send them to private schools. Then they undermine the financial basis of public education (one of this nations singular great accomplishments. Universal public education) in a manner that hurts blacks, poor whites and other minorities than they have the unmitigated gall to expect us to pay for their failing public school and then have the audacity to ask us tax payers up north to subsidize not only their kids education in private schools but to fund their failing public schools. It would be laughable if it wasn't for so many kids are being hurt by this vicious and vindictive attitudes towards minorities and poor whites that they have in the south.

Why it's simply just not a northern value. We care about our kids. We care deeply about their education to the tune of the 4 times as much as we pay in community support. And let me tell you, when you want to see where a persons or societies value are just watch where they spend their money!

If you want to see where the education gap with our foreign competition in science and math begins you have to go no further than drive across the I-75 bridge from Cincinnati into Petersburg, Kentucky. That's where the South begins geographically, culturally and educationally.

Right now were going through a stage of home taught morons in the south that's going to jump and bite us in the ass when they grow up to be slack jawed morons who can't hold a job.
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Unlike you I actually have direct experience comparing Mass, PA and NY public schools with our public schools here in NC. Out of all my kid's cousins, mine have done the best, and by a large margin. And my K-12 public education in Mass sucked compared to what my kids received here.

My HS friends who still live in the same town are constantly complaining of crumbling schools and roads. And the crime there compared to here? It's a huge difference.

You can't make valid comparisons based on money spent, Moot. If that was the case DC schools would be the finest in the nation, yet they are some of the worst.
 
Superfreak said:
1) They are not better educated simply because they earn more. You forget the cost of living in the south is cheaper on average than the north.
2) GDP numbers of who? Show me the GDP numbers of the auto sector in each state you are referring to.
3) Now show the productivity numbers.

You are simply pulling shit out of your ass.
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The cost of living is cheaper in the South cause they have the highest poverty rates in the nation. 9 of the top 10 highest poverty rates are southern States. Arizona being the only non-southern state of the 10 States with the highest poverty rates.In addition the South has the lowest quality of life with only 1 State, Virginia (thanks to the Norther belway region) is in the top 25 of US States in terms of quality of life. Low cost of living doesn't mean squat when it directly correlates to a lower quality of life! A big part of the reason why the South has a lower cost of livnig and a lower quality of life is their pigheaded refusal to invest in their own communities and States and guess who ends up pay the bill for that? We do cause those hypocrits go running to the Federal government (and despite their southern rugged individualist talk, no one in this nation is even half as remotely proficient on sucking on the Federal Government tit and living on Federa Government largesse than the South!)

The nubers you also see about the Souths growing economy deserve scrutiny too. The South is the master at creating minimum wage jobs and in addition if it wasn't for rampant defense spending in the South, their economy would collapse.

I showed you the GDP #'s for the NE region vs. The South. Again, the North East region is nearly twice as productive as the South. Deal with it.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/100016697

http://www.top50states.com/welfare-statistics.html

http://www.top50states.com/welfare-statistics.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_GDP
 
DamnYankee said:
Unlike you I actually have direct experience comparing Mass, PA and NY public schools with our public schools here in NC. Out of all my kid's cousins, mine have done the best, and by a large margin. And my K-12 public education in Mass sucked compared to what my kids received here.

My HS friends who still live in the same town are constantly complaining of crumbling schools and roads. And the crime there compared to here? It's a huge difference.

You can't make valid comparisons based on money spent, Moot. If that was the case DC schools would be the finest in the nation, yet they are some of the worst.
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Oh please.....I've lived in the South too and I"ve looked at the data. I'll grant you that North Carolina is not as typical of a Southern State when it comes to education but spare me you're anecdotal evidence. The data on the education gap in the South is clear cut. Southerners in vast numbers historically have not supported investment in their own communities and States, particularly in education and public safety. That is why the South has lowest academic performances, highest crime rates, lowest incomes and lower quality of life than the rest of the nation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States
http://www.parentsunited.org/press-...rmance-progress-and-reform-january-26-2012-5/
 
Mott the Hoople said:
In wages/salaries UAW workers make slightly less than private sector auto workers in the south. In total compensation (health benefits, retirement, vacation time, etc) UAW workers make a total compensation of around $40/hr and southern non Union Auto Workers in the south have a total compensation of around $30/hour. Why do they earn more than their southern counterparts? Because they're better educated and more productive and the GDP numbers bear that out.
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No. They have unions negotiating higher than compensation making their companies unprofitable. See GM
 
"the south" is code word for white people by leftists

What is inypteresting is that the left doesn't consider that Lincoln's illegal war destroyed the South's economy. But, we are supposed to consider that a black person still carries the vestiges of slavery. Interesting
 
Superfreak said:
Public safety like in Chicago, Detroit, Philly, NYC, DC etc... those wonderful public safety programs?

Like I said, you have that elitist attitude thinking you are somehow better. Yet you live in Ohio... the cesspool of the nation... and you stay there by choice. So you really shouldn't be commenting on the intelligence of others.

You still have shown nothing to show the southern products are 'second rate'...
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They're safer than Miami, Atlanta, Houston & New Orleans. Another subject I'm gad you posted. Here's an excellent example of why the Souths lack of public investment is stupid and short sighted. The South leads the nation in crime, violent crime and the rate of incarcerations. In fact the south's crime rate is nearly double that of the north. All of which directly correlate to lack of investment in education and public safety. So what those right wing "pro-business" political assholes don't spend on education us folks up here end up spending on building their prisons while the public ends up paying for the higher cost of crime (and crime is a big reason why the South has a lower quality of life than the North).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States
 
Mott the Hoople said:
Oh please.....I've lived in the South too and I"ve looked at the data. I'll grant you that North Carolina is not as typical of a Southern State when it comes to education but spare me you're anecdotal evidence. The data on the education gap in the South is clear cut. Southerners in vast numbers historically have not supported investment in their own communities and States, particularly in education and public safety. That is why the South has lowest academic performances, highest crime rates, lowest incomes and lower quality of life than the rest of the nation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States
http://www.parentsunited.org/press-...rmance-progress-and-reform-january-26-2012-5/
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Again you're trying to equate cost with quality and I've already showed you how that fails. What you liberals call "investments" are in fact spending programs to prop up failed teacher's unions. The South is largely right-to-work and we just don't tolerate union bullshit.
 
DamnYankee said:
Again you're trying to equate cost with quality and I've already showed you how that fails. What you liberals call "investments" are in fact spending programs to prop up failed teacher's unions. The South is largely right-to-work and we just don't tolerate union bullshit.
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Oh what bullshit. Ya'll don't pay property taxes for your public education, infrastrastructure or public safety. Ya'll arguments about "teachers unions" is a load of crap too. We don't have that problem with Teachers unions up here. Why? Cause we pay our teachers decently, we support our schools (not undermine them like ya'll do) and provide them with the resources to teach and why? Cause up here education is all about the kids and it shows too as we score far higher in math, science and language skills that Southern States do.

Down there it's all about racist politics. If what your saying is true than why does the south have the worst education performance in the nation? Why does it have the highest crime and incarceration rates in the country? Why does it have the lowest quality of life and highest rates of unhappiness in the nation? I'll tell you why. It's because ya'll refuse to invest in your own States and communities.

What really gets under my skins is ya'll don't even support and invest in your own communities and States and then we have to constantly keep bailing the souths ass out over and over and over again when your public systems fail and we end up payig for it.

We need to pass a constitutional ammendment that no State can recieve more federal funds, including defense spending, then what they pay into our Federal coffers and that way we could force the south to stary pulling it's own weight for a change instead of bleeding the rest of the country dry.

I mean hey, if you guys don't believe in investing in your selves why should we invest in you?

And on the education front. If ya'll want to see what a model Southern homeschooling, Charter School and government subsidies for private religious schools are as a model for the rest of the nation you only have to look at the disaster that is Southern education system. All these things are ploys that the South has succesfully used to re-segregate education in the South and it's worked too. At least it's worked in segregating class rooms. It's devestated education in the south. Shoot even the vast majority of private (read white) schools in the south aren't as good a public schools in the north.

Hell if you normalize standardized test scores in science and math to exclude the Southern States (both public and private) the US compares favorably and competitively in those extremely important subjects with the rest of the industrialized nations. Include the South and were at the bottom of the barrel for industrialized nations.
 
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Mott the Hoople said:
The cost of living is cheaper in the South cause they have the highest poverty rates in the nation. 9 of the top 10 highest poverty rates are southern States. Arizona being the only non-southern state of the 10 States with the highest poverty rates.In addition the South has the lowest quality of life with only 1 State, Virginia (thanks to the Norther belway region) is in the top 25 of US States in terms of quality of life. Low cost of living doesn't mean squat when it directly correlates to a lower quality of life! A big part of the reason why the South has a lower cost of livnig and a lower quality of life is their pigheaded refusal to invest in their own communities and States and guess who ends up pay the bill for that? We do cause those hypocrits go running to the Federal government (and despite their southern rugged individualist talk, no one in this nation is even half as remotely proficient on sucking on the Federal Government tit and living on Federa Government largesse than the South!)

The nubers you also see about the Souths growing economy deserve scrutiny too. The South is the master at creating minimum wage jobs and in addition if it wasn't for rampant defense spending in the South, their economy would collapse.

I showed you the GDP #'s for the NE region vs. The South. Again, the North East region is nearly twice as productive as the South. Deal with it.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/100016697

http://www.top50states.com/welfare-statistics.html

http://www.top50states.com/welfare-statistics.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_GDP
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LMAO... you think poverty rates are what drives cost of living?

the poverty rate is a national average. For lower cost of living areas, that have lower average wages/salaries, their dollars go further than those under the federal line in high cost of living areas.

when you adjust for cost of living...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_poverty_rate

Take a look at the supplemental poverty measure... look who is up there... DC number one. CA number two. NY is worse than Mississippi and every other southern state but GA.

You also ignore one obvious change to GDP that would occur. The south would not keep their financial assets with foreign banks. if we dumped the NE instead of the south, the rest of the country would pull its assets from the NE and put them within the new country. Would anything be pulled from the South's GDP if we instead dumped them?
 
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