Evil Catholics invading America

Threedee said:
So do Christians and Muslims, so it kind of takes the flame outta them.
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Yep why I think Religon sucks. Believe in the god of your choice if you want, but organized religion is just a tool to manipulate people. and a crutch for the weak.
 
uscitizen said:
Yep why I think Religon sucks. Believe in the god of your choice if you want, but organized religion is just a tool to manipulate people. and a crutch for the weak.
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So, what's a Christian like me to do when the Gospel lays the foundation of an organized Church. You've got some serious understanding of theology going there...


BTW - atheist governments killed tens of millions last century, in an attempt to convert and proslytize...
 
uscitizen said:
Yeah the followers of Jesus organized the Christian church. It was not the work of Jesus.
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"You are Peter [Rock], and upon this rock I will build my Church, and I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Whatever you declare loosed in heaven shall be bound on Earth; whatever you declare loosed on Earth shall be bound in heaven."
-Matt 16:17

You're so very right CSC. Later on in Matthew, Jesus repeats the second sentence to the apostles as a group, which is where we get the Catholic Church's structural tradition of Apostalic Succession.
 
Threedee said:
"You are Peter [Rock], and upon this rock I will build my Church, and I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Whatever you declare loosed in heaven shall be bound on Earth; whatever you declare loosed on Earth shall be bound in heaven."
-Matt 16:17

You're so very right CSC. Later on in Matthew, Jesus repeats the second sentence to the apostles as a group, which is where we get the Catholic Church's structural tradition of Apostalic Succession.
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Not quite, filthy papist.

http://atalk.wordpress.com/2007/06/05/biblical-papacy-part-2-so-what-is-this-rock/

There are a few other passages, but clearly we can see that the foundation of the followers of God is none other than Christ himself. In ever instance, except for Matthew 16:18, it’s very clear that the base, the support, the foundation of the church, is Jesus, the Messiah. Why should we then assume the passage in Matthew to be any different?

Thus, the impossibility of Peter as the rock of the church is shown in every instance. I’ll give some examples here of thoughts I’ve had, plus ideas which have been expressed to me by others…

In this metaphor that Jesus used, the rock and the foundation are the same element, more generally “that on which the church is built”. As Jesus himself is defined as the foundation, there can be no other foundation, for it would be equal to Jesus himself, which is a ridiculous notion, to say the least.
Some suggest that Jesus (the rock) would build Peter upon him (the foundation). However, why then would Peter be called the rock, and Jesus the foundation? If they’re two separate elements, one is built upon another. Clearly, the rock is more important the foundation which rests on it. To say that Jesus and Peter are separate elements, but both foundational in nature, is to suggest that Peter is more important than Jesus.
Even if you can reasonably dismiss all of the arguments as to why Peter can’t be the rock Jesus spoke of, there’s one you can’t dismiss — nowhere else in the entirety of scripture do we find the understanding that Peter was supreme over the other apostles. In Ephesians 2:20, he is grouped in with the apostles as being part of the foundation, yes, but as you’ll notice, that passage groups all of the apostles together as an element of the church. It goes on to make particular distinction of Christ as being more important, and yet makes no mention of the supremacy of Peter.
Clearly, we can see that the rock and the foundation of the church were one in the same. Jesus used this parable to explain to the apostles that he, not any of them, nor anyone else, would be the foundation of the church. He (and more specifically, his death on the cross) was to be the foundation, the most important element…the center of the Christian faith. On that foundation the church is built, not one man.
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uscitizen said:
Yes the individuals ie Peter is the key 3C, not the organized church. Ye who do not understand...
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What does that mean? There were several thousand disciples by the time of Christ's death. The foundation was on the apostles, however, and Peter specifically. They constitute a leadership of an organized Church.
 
AssHatZombie said:
Not quite, filthy papist.
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I am a proud papist. Your attempts to gloss over the Gospel are pathetic. You either believe it or you don't. Try not to half-ass it, Ass. There is no contradiction between Christ having complete authority over all things and Peter and the apostles being relegated complete authority over the Church. That does not make Church the equivilent of Him.
 
Threedee said:
I am a proud papist. Your attempts to gloss over the Gospel are pathetic. You either believe it or you don't. Try not to half-ass it, Ass. There is no contradiction between Christ having complete authority over all things and Peter and the apostles being relegated complete authority over the Church. That does not make Church the equivilent of Him.
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Ultimatums from a theocrat. Imagine that. F-you, nazi.
 
AssHatZombie said:
Ultimatums from a theocrat. Imagine that. F-you, nazi.
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Go read Matthew again. If you can't even do that and help yourself, then I don't want to help you. Ignorance is not bliss when it comes to scripture. The point is, there is a single Church and a hierarchy which administers and makes decisions about doctrine. Throughout the Gospels, 4 of the 7 Sacraments are clearly laid out (Baptism, Eucharist, Holy Orders and Reconciliation) and a fifth (Extreme Unction in the Epistle of St. James). The remaining two, Marriage and Confirmation have been found to be necessary, as being a member of the Church is essential to salvation and Marriage has a strong religious foundation in both Testaments.

The Gospel and the Church Founders and history have made it abundantly clear of the authenticity of the Church and the necessity of its doctrines and the Sacraments. If you have a problem with that, don't go to Mass, but don't claim you didn't know all this on the last day either...
 
Threedee said:
Go read Matthew again. If you can't even do that and help yourself, then I don't want to help you. Ignorance is not bliss when it comes to scripture. The point is, there is a single Church and a hierarchy which administers and makes decisions about doctrine.
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But everyone has a right to reject the authority of the church's interpretation and go by their own interpretation.
Throughout the Gospels, 4 of the 7 Sacraments are clearly laid out (Baptism, Eucharist, Holy Orders and Reconciliation) and a fifth (Extreme Unction in the Epistle of St. James). The remaining two, Marriage and Confirmation have been found to be necessary, as being a member of the Church is essential to salvation and Marriage has a strong religious foundation in both Testaments.

The Gospel and the Church Founders and history have made it abundantly clear of the authenticity of the Church and the necessity of its doctrines and the Sacraments. If you have a problem with that, don't go to Mass, but don't claim you didn't know all this on the last day either...
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Shove it, theocrat.
 
AssHatZombie said:
But everyone has a right to reject the authority of the church's interpretation and go by their own interpretation.


Shove it, theocrat.
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Refute the scripture, then tell me to shove it. No one has the authority to reject it, as the Apostles and their successors have ALL authority on Heaven and on Earth until the last day.

"Now I exhort you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all agree and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be made complete in the same mind and in the same judgment." (1 Cor 1:10)
 
"Now I exhort you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all agree and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be made complete in the same mind and in the same judgment." (1 Cor 1:10)

Now that is funny when applied to current Christians. No dissention ? :D
 
uscitizen said:
"Now I exhort you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all agree and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be made complete in the same mind and in the same judgment." (1 Cor 1:10)

Now that is funny when applied to current Christians. No dissention ? :D
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Hence, the sheer genious of the Protestant movement. Offshoots built upon offshoots built upon offshoots, mostly over trivial matters like proper sentence structures in approved translations and so forth.

Without Apostalic Orthodoxy, you only have chaos. Hence, 1 Catholic Church and 13 Eastern Orthodox Churches, but 25,000 Protestant churches, and no right for any one to criticize the other without conceeding human authority.
 
uscitizen said:
And american catholics are ohh so in synch with the Vatican 4F ?

The pervert preists, etc ?
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What, the 2%? That underscores the teaching profession and others such as mental health BTW. Where the American church got out of line was with the Bishops breaking the law and covering up the sex abuses until they were hit with lawsuits.

American Bishops' corruption in many areas since they were empowered by Vatican II is now winding down as Rome discovers it must waste time babysitting them, and a new generation finds its way into their ranks, vastly more deserving of the power...
 
Threedee said:
What, the 2%? That underscores the teaching profession and others such as mental health BTW. Where the American church got out of line was with the Bishops breaking the law and covering up the sex abuses until they were hit with lawsuits.

American Bishops' corruption in many areas since they were empowered by Vatican II is now winding down as Rome discovers it must waste time babysitting them, and a new generation finds its way into their ranks, vastly more deserving of the power...
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And the controversy over priests marrying, women preaching, etc ?

The catholic church is no way as coherent as you apparently believe.
 
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