Suspended for not standing for pledge!

Superfreak said:
You clearly are incapable of reading. It is showing respect for other PEOPLE, not the United States. As Damo mentioned in his Russian analogy.... would you stand out of respect for the Russian people or would you sit like a petulent child? Your standing would have nothing to do with respecting Russia or acknowledging their anthem. It is respect. Something so clearly lacking in many on the left.
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Fuck showing respect for other people. If I don't think you are worthy of my respect, well then toooooo fucking bad. You aren't going to force me or anyone intelligent to respect you. RESPECT IS EARNED.
 
Grind said:
Fuck showing respect for other people. If I don't think you are worthy of my respect, well then toooooo fucking bad. You aren't going to force me or anyone intelligent to respect you. RESPECT IS EARNED.
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If you don't like your teacher or don't think he/she is good are you going to fuck off in class as a sign of disrespect for the teacher? Because in the classroom it comes down to authority for the teacher.
 
blackascoal said:
Damo, Damo, Damo ...

Where did I say he was "bad."
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Your disdain for those you are comparing him to makes it clear. Be honest with yourself, at least.

I am merely disagreeing with his conclusion .. just like you are with mine.

Please find a real argument.

I didn't call you stupid but I disagree with your conclusion.
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You didn't, somebody else did. I participated in this conversation with more than one person.

In my opinion this boils down to ones perspective on the freedom of thought. Conservatives like yourself predictably fall on the side of authority and. hence my comment about the right-wing .. and lo and behold, order most who agree with you are on the right and those opposed are on the left.
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Again, this is stereotyping and presenting it as authoritative to ask the kid to be respectful to the social mores of others. You simplify it and make it solely about the flag because you want it to be simple and easy to judge, you refuse to see more than one layer to a far more complex issue. You reject any other way to look at it, and then attempt to silence others with insults by comparing those you view solely with contempt and you know that the person you are comparing does too. It isn't me who is being "conservative" here.

Predictably, the left believes that authority and order often has to be challenged. We think that's what freedom is about.
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And if this was solely about the flag, I'd agree. But I don't believe it is and for the reasons previously assigned.

Students are not required to recite the Pledge .. is that "disruptive" to other students? The courts don't think so .. and they came to that conclusion when the left challenged its authority and order.

Why is the Pledge even required anyway?

Are you somehow less American if you don't hear the Pledge?
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Regardless of whether you are "somehow less" American. Teaching students the social mores under certain conditions that people use to show respect for each other is not contrary to thought. Your mother was not trying to teach you not to think. She was showing you that you respect other people, even when you disagree.
 
uscitizen said:
Yeah right. Cuss out the next politician you see, or cop, or your boss, etc and see how things work out. refuse to go by the corporate rules or dress code ?

The real world has rules, and if we are to reasonably fit in we must pretty much follow those rules. That is not to say we should not work to change those we disagree with. But the price can be high.
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Who said the world doesn't have rules?

Do you really think I can't disagree and act against some without cussing out my boss at work? Do you really believe its all or nothing .. stand for the Pledge or you'll be a failure in life?

"Whites Only drinking fountain"

I know you don't believe that bullshit .. but those were the rules.

There are lots of rules that need changing, but only those whose minds are FREE enough will find the courage or will to take up that challenge.
 
LOL , I think grind just likes to think for himself and doesnt see it as a threat for others to do the same.
 
cawacko said:
Is not doing your homework a sign of 'thinking for yourself' and not following authority?
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You're being an idiot. As I said previously, respecting a student's rights (I don't believe there is a right to not do homework) while maintaining discipline and order are not mutually exclusive.
 
Damocles said:
Your disdain for those you are comparing him to makes it clear. Be honest with yourself, at least.
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No you be honest with yourself and post where I called him "bad" or be honest and tell yourself you're looking for an argument where there is none.

Damocles said:
You didn't, somebody else did. I participated in this conversation with more than one person.
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You're right, I didn't .. just as I didn't use or imply the word "bad."

Damocles said:
Again, this is stereotyping and presenting it as authoritative to ask the kid to be respectful to the social mores of others. You simplify it and make it solely about the flag because you want it to be simple and easy to judge, you refuse to see more than one layer to a far more complex issue. You reject any other way to look at it, and then attempt to silence others with insults by comparing those you view solely with contempt and you know that the person you are comparing does too. It isn't me who is being "conservative" here.
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I can see you're having a real difficult time with this.

WHAT INSULTS?

If you skin is thin because you don't have an argument that's not my fault.

You run away from the truth of this issue because you can't argue it on its merit.

I ask you again .. is not reciting the Pledge disrespectful?

AND hell yes it's you who are the conservative here and everywhere else when it's you and I. Conservatives don't challenge authority.

Damocles said:
And if this was solely about the flag, I'd agree. But I don't believe it is and for the reasons previously assigned.
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It is solely about the flag and the question I asked that you haven't answered proves it.

Damocles said:
Regardless of whether you are "somehow less" American. Teaching students the social mores under certain conditions that people use to show respect for each other is not contrary to thought. Your mother was not trying to teach you not to think. She was showing you that you respect other people, even when you disagree.
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You don't know my mother my friend.

She doesn't give a damn about social order .. she never has .. and why should she? .. and she has successfully raised 7 respectful children. I still say "Yes ma'am, yes sir" to older people.

What she taught was to respect when respect is DESERVED.
 
Damocles said:
Bizarre is not understanding that you show respect to other people. If that entails standing up when they play, say, the Russian Anthem while you are in Russia, even if you don't like their government. Then you stand.

This is the same thing. Only it is in your own nation. You simply stand up and show respect for the other people. You don't "pledge" yourself, it doesn't mean you are owned. Just be respectful. It is part of what we are supposed to be teaching kids.
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Maybe the kid should show respect, but doing something merely because you are required to do so, does not show respect.
 
blackascoal said:
No you be honest with yourself and post where I called him "bad" or be honest and tell yourself you're looking for an argument where there is none.



You're right, I didn't .. just as I didn't use or imply the word "bad."



I can see you're having a real difficult time with this.

WHAT INSULTS?

If you skin is thin because you don't have an argument that's not my fault.

You run away from the truth of this issue because you can't argue it on its merit.

I ask you again .. is not reciting the Pledge disrespectful?

AND hell yes it's you who are the conservative here and everywhere else when it's you and I. Conservatives don't challenge authority.



It is solely about the flag and the question I asked that you haven't answered proves it.



You don't know my mother my friend.

She doesn't give a damn about social order .. she never has .. and why should she? .. and she has successfully raised 7 respectful children. I still say "Yes ma'am, yes sir" to older people.

What she taught was to respect when respect is DESERVED.
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If you are not going to be honest enough to admit that saying (paraphrasing) "You agree with people you and I both have total disdain for" is an insult as you did with uscit and the 26% of the nation agree with you blather, then there is no reason to continue this conversation for the following reason:

You will not be honest enough to recognize anything at all that may be wrong with your argument if you won't admit what everybody else saw, that was nothing more than an attempt to insult somebody who did not agree with you. And a particularly glaring and easy to spot insult too. Most of us on the right would be insulted by the equivalence argument you propounded, let alone a lefty who agrees more often than not with you.

And saying that how a person acts socially has no part in this, or that your moms was trying to teach you not to think goes places that I would never go and is an attempt to simplify.

What I find the most interesting about this argument, is that the left is doing what it so often accuses the right of doing. Oversimplifying and seeing only in black and white.

My mother was not teaching me not to think, nor do I believe that yours was. But heck, if that's what you want me to think about your mom, then so be it.

Since it is what you want me to believe. Your mom was an authoritarian who was teaching you manners just because she wanted you to do what you were told.
 
Dungheap said:
Coming from the guy that equates standing with showing respect for the country. Maybe the kids thinks the country, as symbolized by the flag, isn't worthy of his respect. Why should he be punished for expressing that sentiment?
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He should not, if I were in a Jewish Temple, I would be in that temple by choice and would if I chose to attend show respect.

If I were required to attend a Jewish Temple, I might not wish to be so respectfull!
 
Damocles said:
If you are not going to be honest enough to admit that saying (paraphrasing) "You agree with people you and I both have total disdain for" is an insult as you did with uscit and the 26% of the nation agree with you blather, then there is no reason to continue this conversation for the following reason:

You will not be honest enough to recognize anything at all that may be wrong with your argument if you won't admit what everybody else saw, that was nothing more than an attempt to insult somebody who did not agree with you.
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This is real difficult for you and you can drop out if you choose, but what I said about that 26% is absolutely correct and you know it. You may be uncomfortable on their side of the fence .. but there you are. It's not an insult when it's true, it's a statement of fact.

I meant no insult to anyone, you or uscit. But your argument is pure right-wingish .. something even uscit acknowledged.

Strange how you haven't gotten around to answering my question.
 
blackascoal said:
This is real difficult for you and you can drop out if you choose, but what I said about that 26% is absolutely correct and you know it. You may be uncomfortable on their side of the fence .. but there you are. It's not an insult when it's true, it's a statement of fact.

I meant no insult to anyone, you or uscit. But your argument is pure right-wingish .. someting even uscit acknowledged.

Strange how you haven't gotten around to answering my question.
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Which question? I must have missed it. I am not one to avoid the hard questions.
 
Grind said:
Fuck showing respect for other people. If I don't think you are worthy of my respect, well then toooooo fucking bad. You aren't going to force me or anyone intelligent to respect you. RESPECT IS EARNED.
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Yeah and that is the purpose of the suspension. In my school days "respect" for teachers was "earned" with a paddling if you were too hard headed or slow to pick it up any other way.

there is earned respect and respect for power. Both are used in our society.
You sort of naturally respect a lion don't ya ?
 
blackascoal said:
I agree, you are not one to avoid them.

Is not reciting the Pledge while others are reciting the Pledge a sign of disrespect?
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Nope. Just as I wouldn't pray when you were praying. I would simply stand and show respect to you and your beliefs. (if praying was your wont...)

Teaching kids a bit of manners does not limit their ability to think, nor does it force them into a false "patriotism".
 
blackascoal said:
Is not reciting the Pledge while others are reciting the Pledge a sign of disrespect?
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depends on your society, Luckially many of us have gone beyond blind patriotism. Enough so that even our laws and courts do not require it too much anymore.
But it is not gone and in some ways has grown for political purposes.
Heck I never even bought a flag or ribbon magnet.
 
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