But Bush said not yet....
- Thread starter uscitizen
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OrnotBitwise
Watermelon
Some of the best peace activists I've known have been vets. Not all, but some.
Some of the best peace activists I've known have been vets. Not all, but some.
Me too, and some of my personal favorite ones too.
Maineman is enough evidence for me.
Good for you. For me, it's a lot like the 69 World Series.
A lot of people claim to have been there. Some of them were.
Unlike the world series, this certainly has had its political uses.
A lot of myths do.
Here's a really interesting piece on this:
http://www.rlg.org/en/page.php?Page_ID=95
I don't know the person who wrote it, I went looking for something to back up my friend's writings on this. He shares this opinion, and he also sites the same evidence, or should i say, lack thereof. He is a Vietnam Veteran, a college professor and holds a ph.d, and he teaches here in NY. but I wouldn't post his work, nor ever reveal his name. I don't care who believes I made him up. I am posting this instead.
I would like to point out the part that says:
"I also found historical evidence for what I came to call "grist" for the myth. There are newspaper reports, for example, of pro-war demonstrators spitting on anti-war activists. In their retelling over the years, the oral accounts of these incidents could easily get reinterpreted and inverted and made into stories about activists spitting on veterans."
What I find especially interesting about this is, several months ago, peace protesters were spit upon by those rolling thunder morons, and it was reported in the newspapers, and the rolling thunder morons were proud of it. It was not denied. And so, the idea that this is exactly what happened back then, isn't far-fetched to me at all.
As he says, and as my friend says, sure, it probably happened to a couple of guys. But it wasn't shit. It wasn't shit. So many returning vets were joining the peace movement at that time, and that is the under reported story. that is what no one ever wanted you to know. Just how many vietnam veterans were actually in the peace movement.
The rest was always deflection.
http://www.rlg.org/en/page.php?Page_ID=95
I don't know the person who wrote it, I went looking for something to back up my friend's writings on this. He shares this opinion, and he also sites the same evidence, or should i say, lack thereof. He is a Vietnam Veteran, a college professor and holds a ph.d, and he teaches here in NY. but I wouldn't post his work, nor ever reveal his name. I don't care who believes I made him up. I am posting this instead.
I would like to point out the part that says:
"I also found historical evidence for what I came to call "grist" for the myth. There are newspaper reports, for example, of pro-war demonstrators spitting on anti-war activists. In their retelling over the years, the oral accounts of these incidents could easily get reinterpreted and inverted and made into stories about activists spitting on veterans."
What I find especially interesting about this is, several months ago, peace protesters were spit upon by those rolling thunder morons, and it was reported in the newspapers, and the rolling thunder morons were proud of it. It was not denied. And so, the idea that this is exactly what happened back then, isn't far-fetched to me at all.
As he says, and as my friend says, sure, it probably happened to a couple of guys. But it wasn't shit. It wasn't shit. So many returning vets were joining the peace movement at that time, and that is the under reported story. that is what no one ever wanted you to know. Just how many vietnam veterans were actually in the peace movement.
The rest was always deflection.
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And here is another one...
http://www.nysun.com/article/48084?page_no=1
That I find interesting. While it recognizes your article, although I know enough people whom I respect that I believe that it happened, it also goes on to say that because there wasn't evidence of physical saliva on a soldier does nothing to mitigate the fact that they were so abused they became a protected minority by law.
Seriously, do you think they just made up those laws because they thought it was a good idea?
http://www.nysun.com/article/48084?page_no=1
That I find interesting. While it recognizes your article, although I know enough people whom I respect that I believe that it happened, it also goes on to say that because there wasn't evidence of physical saliva on a soldier does nothing to mitigate the fact that they were so abused they became a protected minority by law.
Seriously, do you think they just made up those laws because they thought it was a good idea?
And I started researching. I've already found stories, contrary to claims in the book, of soldiers/sailors being spat upon....
Even first hand accounts by a two-time Pulitzer prize winner...
And even an acclaimed anti-war protester pleaded with those doing such to stop...
(note that he even showed what publication you can find it in...)
http://volokh.com/posts/1170928927.shtml
There is story after story found in the newspapers of the time listed there...
Too bad they weren't published online, we'd have found them long ago. But if this author couldn't "find" the stories, it is because he had a preconceived idea and wasn't looking for them.
I'm very glad that you brought this to the fore. I have always relied on the trustworthiness of people that I hold in esteem recounting such. Now I don't have to, there is far more evidence of them than that "The Spitting Image" book wanted you to know about if you just spend some time researching it.
That guy Lembcke just made crap up too...
Geez.... This guy's credibility is going right down the toilet. As much a scholar as Ward Churchill
As for the "girls don't spit" recounted in Lembcke's book...
Note the fact that again a Pulitzer prize winner gives a FIRST HAND account....
It appears that Olbermann is willing to believe whatever he reads as long as it fits his personal agenda without even one tiny bit of researching. It didn't take me all that long to find it. Often I hear people accusing the rightwingers of only watching FOX. Maybe you should spend some time reading and listening to people other than solely lefties like Olbermann..
Even first hand accounts by a two-time Pulitzer prize winner...
And even an acclaimed anti-war protester pleaded with those doing such to stop...
(note that he even showed what publication you can find it in...)
http://volokh.com/posts/1170928927.shtml
There is story after story found in the newspapers of the time listed there...
Too bad they weren't published online, we'd have found them long ago. But if this author couldn't "find" the stories, it is because he had a preconceived idea and wasn't looking for them.
I'm very glad that you brought this to the fore. I have always relied on the trustworthiness of people that I hold in esteem recounting such. Now I don't have to, there is far more evidence of them than that "The Spitting Image" book wanted you to know about if you just spend some time researching it.
That guy Lembcke just made crap up too...
Geez.... This guy's credibility is going right down the toilet. As much a scholar as Ward Churchill
As for the "girls don't spit" recounted in Lembcke's book...
Note the fact that again a Pulitzer prize winner gives a FIRST HAND account....
It appears that Olbermann is willing to believe whatever he reads as long as it fits his personal agenda without even one tiny bit of researching. It didn't take me all that long to find it. Often I hear people accusing the rightwingers of only watching FOX. Maybe you should spend some time reading and listening to people other than solely lefties like Olbermann..
maineman
Banned
why would I, an avid democrat and anti-war individual, make that up?
I said that I did not think that the anti-war protesters went to the airport with the intention of spitting on any servicemen...it was a heated moment and there were words exchanged and a couple of the protesters spit at us.
The interesting thing about war protesters in THIS war, is that many of them are former Vietnam war protesters. They are much more mellow now, and know full well that such actions hurt - not help - our cause.
I'll read the article tomorrow, I'm too tired for that now.
The idea that they needed a law is absurd. I think they made the law because it fit right into an agenda. And the agenda was to hide just how much of the peace movement was made up of returning vets. That movement needed to be portrayed as fringe. It was not.
And I started researching. I've already found stories, contrary to claims in the book, of soldiers/sailors being spat upon....
Even first hand accounts by a two-time Pulitzer prize winner...
And even an acclaimed anti-war protester pleaded with those doing such to stop...
(note that he even showed what publication you can find it in...)
http://volokh.com/posts/1170928927.shtml
There is story after story found in the newspapers of the time listed there...
Too bad they weren't published online, we'd have found them long ago. But if this author couldn't "find" the stories, it is because he had a preconceived idea and wasn't looking for them.
I'm very glad that you brought this to the fore. I have always relied on the trustworthiness of people that I hold in esteem recounting such. Now I don't have to, there is far more evidence of them than that "The Spitting Image" book wanted you to know about if you just spend some time researching it.
That guy Lembcke just made crap up too...
Geez.... This guy's credibility is going right down the toilet. As much a scholar as Ward Churchill
As for the "girls don't spit" recounted in Lembcke's book...
Note the fact that again a Pulitzer prize winner gives a FIRST HAND account....
It appears that Olbermann is willing to believe whatever he reads as long as it fits his personal agenda without even one tiny bit of researching. It didn't take me all that long to find it. Often I hear people accusing the rightwingers of only watching FOX. Maybe you should spend some time reading and listening to people other than solely lefties like Olbermann..
Who the heck is Olbermann?
Damo, I have to go to bed, I'll read this all tomorrow. You foudn one story and this somehow proves that it was common place, I doubt it.
Who was spit on more often, returning vets or peace activists?
I didn't say you made it up Mainman.
All known evidence points to it being a rare occurence. Yet, nearly every vet you see on message boards, says it happened to them. I don't even believe BB is actually a Vietnam Vet, no less that he was spit on. I think he is full of shit all around, if you want to know the truth.
You seem to imply there was some sort of altercation when you were spit on. i wonder which group spit first. Right wing veterans, or, I should say, alleged veterans, have been spitting on peace protesters in DC lately. If one of them spits on me you can bet your ass I will spit right back in their faces, and when it gets reported, no doubt on FOX, it will be "anti war protester spits on veteran". In fact, I have long hoped one of them would do it to me, because from what I have seen, in videos on the internet, right wing bullies have been posting video of their intimidating peace protesters, spitting on them, ripping their signs out of their hands, and running them off. I will give them a video to put on Utube, but it will be slightly different.
You want me to believe it was so different back then. But I don't. I know these people. They haven't changed.
I think that they were rare, but found often enough to give evidence that they happened. I never said they were commonplace, I said that they happened. You stated that they were an "Urban Myth". They weren't. People had it happen to them, it was awful.
Damo I never said that they were an urban myth, did I? Where?
I believe that they happened, but that they were extremely rare. The urban myth is that this was a widespread practice. But it was actually a right wing myth, and it was more of a narrative. And it was not accidental. It was to completely discredit the peace movement, and to hide the untold story of the peace movement, which was how many returning vets were actually in the movement.
Have you ever been at a peace protest Damo? Try going. See who you think the bullies are. You have no idea, none whatsoever.
This doesn't even pass the smell test for me, because I am in the midst of it, and I know these people, and as I said, they haven't changed.
Right, thats the conclusion you want to reach fine. Go to DC for the next march, and walk around with a peace sign, but be separated from the main march, and then walk around with a pro-war sign and walk around the main peace march, see what happens to you in each situation, and then you tell me there are a few rotten apples on both sides, because that is BS Damo.
Right. Everybody on your side are perfect. This is such total partisan hogwash. I have watched a "pro-choicer" hit a Buddhist Priest whom he thought was protesting abortion. It really was first-hand with me. I know that both sides do have their demons. That you refuse to admit it is ridiculous self-flattery.
You are right, you said they were all "anecdotal". I think there are far too many stories of people who watched it happen, then wrote about it, to say that it is all "anecdotal".
Let's talk after your next appearance in a DC peace march.
I'll take a look at that other stuff you posted in the morning.
Right, because peace marches in Denver aren't enough? I don't need to travel to see a peace march.