But Bush said not yet....

[Cancel7]

Right, because peace marches in Denver aren't enough? I don't need to travel to see a peace march.

You need to be in DC to see the two right wing vets groups, and I believe plenty of phonys in them, who put out national alerts via the internet to congregate in DC when a big march is coming up and all show up on motorcycles.

They're not in Denver, sorry! I'm sure it's a cool place, but it ain't no cooler than NYC and they're not here either!

Good night, stubborn pain in the ass.

 

[Cancel7]

And here is another one...

http://www.nysun.com/article/48084?page_no=1

That I find interesting. While it recognizes your article, although I know enough people whom I respect that I believe that it happened, it also goes on to say that because there wasn't evidence of physical saliva on a soldier does nothing to mitigate the fact that they were so abused they became a protected minority by law.

Seriously, do you think they just made up those laws because they thought it was a good idea?

Ok I read this. It's an opinion piece that I could not disagree more with.

He claims that the anti-war movement today is "dangerously close" to putting our anger on the soldiers. Where does he get this from? He doesn't say. He pulled it straight out of his ass, because we are in no such place. then he goes on to say that the odd rape here and there of an Iraqi woman were just a few isolated cases. That's bullshit of the highest order, proved out by how many of our own female soldiers have been raped by our male solidiers. I contiue to watch with interest as all of you "troop supporters" ignore what is happening to the female Us soldier.

Finally, he doesn't give one case of anyone being spit on, but he comes up with this as evidence:

A Boston radio talk show invited him as a guest. Poison and invective came in from one of the callers, "If you weren't killing babies in Vietnam, you'd be killing them here," she hissed. Although she was unable to spit directly on him, the call was the verbal equivalent.

Oh, I see. She was "unable to spit at him directly" but the author knows that she would have if she could have.

Well, that proves it then.

 

[Cancel7]

"Another first-hand account of spitting on police by an anti-war demonstrator was published in the Washington Post under the byline of Pulitzer-Prize winner Carl Bernstein on May 7, 1970. A woman described by Bernstein as a “girl” and a “University of Maryland Coed” “spit at a policeman, then called him a ‘pig’ and a ‘filthy swine.’” Less than an hour later,” the same woman “offered a flower to a different police officer,” saying, “It’s not your fault.”

Note the fact that again a Pulitzer prize winner gives a FIRST HAND account...."

Damo, what the hell does this have to do with spitting on soldiers? This was a police officer and had nothing to do with soldiers.

As a side note, if this girl really spit on one police officer, and then a half an hour later gave a flower to another police officer, I'd wonder what the hell the first police officer did to her, wouldn't you? But it's irrelevant, as it has nothing to do with the question.

 

[Cancel7]

And I started researching. I've already found stories, contrary to claims in the book, of soldiers/sailors being spat upon....

Even first hand accounts by a two-time Pulitzer prize winner...



And even an acclaimed anti-war protester pleaded with those doing such to stop...



(note that he even showed what publication you can find it in...)
http://volokh.com/posts/1170928927.shtml

There is story after story found in the newspapers of the time listed there...

Too bad they weren't published online, we'd have found them long ago. But if this author couldn't "find" the stories, it is because he had a preconceived idea and wasn't looking for them.

I'm very glad that you brought this to the fore. I have always relied on the trustworthiness of people that I hold in esteem recounting such. Now I don't have to, there is far more evidence of them than that "The Spitting Image" book wanted you to know about if you just spend some time researching it.

That guy Lembcke just made crap up too...



Geez.... This guy's credibility is going right down the toilet. As much a scholar as Ward Churchill

As for the "girls don't spit" recounted in Lembcke's book...



Note the fact that again a Pulitzer prize winner gives a FIRST HAND account....

It appears that Olbermann is willing to believe whatever he reads as long as it fits his personal agenda without even one tiny bit of researching. It didn't take me all that long to find it. Often I hear people accusing the rightwingers of only watching FOX. Maybe you should spend some time reading and listening to people other than solely lefties like Olbermann..

As for the Reston story, James Reston Damo, had a very close relationship with Henry Kissenger and did some highly questionable things during Vietnam. I read about his history in an Alterman book. He actually asked his fellow Times reporter Anthony Lewis to tone down his critism of Kissenger. He misreported aspects of the war.

And there is no link to the whole article, which I'd like to read. Even if it's true, and knowing Reston's history on Vietnam I am highly dubious, it's one day and does not make any case for this myth that returning vets were spit on all over the place, and they had to be given miniority status the poor dears! Didn't happen. So give it up.

 

[Damocles]

Ok I read this. It's an opinion piece that I could not disagree more with.

He claims that the anti-war movement today is "dangerously close" to putting our anger on the soldiers. Where does he get this from? He doesn't say. He pulled it straight out of his ass, because we are in no such place. then he goes on to say that the odd rape here and there of an Iraqi woman were just a few isolated cases. That's bullshit of the highest order, proved out by how many of our own female soldiers have been raped by our male solidiers. I contiue to watch with interest as all of you "troop supporters" ignore what is happening to the female Us soldier.

Finally, he doesn't give one case of anyone being spit on, but he comes up with this as evidence:

A Boston radio talk show invited him as a guest. Poison and invective came in from one of the callers, "If you weren't killing babies in Vietnam, you'd be killing them here," she hissed. Although she was unable to spit directly on him, the call was the verbal equivalent.

Oh, I see. She was "unable to spit at him directly" but the author knows that she would have if she could have.

Well, that proves it then.

And your link was an opinion piece, I was just trading piece for piece.

 

[Damocles]

As for the Reston story, James Reston Damo, had a very close relationship with Henry Kissenger and did some highly questionable things during Vietnam. I read about his history in an Alterman book. He actually asked his fellow Times reporter Anthony Lewis to tone down his critism of Kissenger. He misreported aspects of the war.

And there is no link to the whole article, which I'd like to read. Even if it's true, and knowing Reston's history on Vietnam I am highly dubious, it's one day and does not make any case for this myth that returning vets were spit on all over the place, and they had to be given miniority status the poor dears! Didn't happen. So give it up.

Yet there was another, and there was listed story after story of the circumstances. Yet you focus on one source and pretend that is it? Come on....

It occurred, you even later said that it did. That they are not all "anecdotal" doesn't change that it did. I know it is embarrassing to admit that your side isn't perfect, but really it isn't. All this, "I know we are perfect because the people that I hang with don't do that!" is crap.

That's like saying nobody is Chinese because I don't know any Chinese nationals.

 

[Damocles]

"Another first-hand account of spitting on police by an anti-war demonstrator was published in the Washington Post under the byline of Pulitzer-Prize winner Carl Bernstein on May 7, 1970. A woman described by Bernstein as a “girl” and a “University of Maryland Coed” “spit at a policeman, then called him a ‘pig’ and a ‘filthy swine.’” Less than an hour later,” the same woman “offered a flower to a different police officer,” saying, “It’s not your fault.”

Note the fact that again a Pulitzer prize winner gives a FIRST HAND account...."

Damo, what the hell does this have to do with spitting on soldiers? This was a police officer and had nothing to do with soldiers.

As a side note, if this girl really spit on one police officer, and then a half an hour later gave a flower to another police officer, I'd wonder what the hell the first police officer did to her, wouldn't you? But it's irrelevant, as it has nothing to do with the question.

No, that answered Lembcke's assertion that "women don't spit as 'communication'" It was garbage and sexism, although positive sexism.

 

[Damocles]

You need to be in DC to see the two right wing vets groups, and I believe plenty of phonys in them, who put out national alerts via the internet to congregate in DC when a big march is coming up and all show up on motorcycles.

They're not in Denver, sorry! I'm sure it's a cool place, but it ain't no cooler than NYC and they're not here either!

Good night, stubborn pain in the ass.

You don't think the biker vet groups are here in Denver? Where have you been? Of course they are! They also ride in to protest block Phelps when he comes in...

 

[maineman]

Who was spit on more often, returning vets or peace activists?

I didn't say you made it up Mainman.

All known evidence points to it being a rare occurence. Yet, nearly every vet you see on message boards, says it happened to them. I don't even believe BB is actually a Vietnam Vet, no less that he was spit on. I think he is full of shit all around, if you want to know the truth.

You seem to imply there was some sort of altercation when you were spit on. i wonder which group spit first. Right wing veterans, or, I should say, alleged veterans, have been spitting on peace protesters in DC lately. If one of them spits on me you can bet your ass I will spit right back in their faces, and when it gets reported, no doubt on FOX, it will be "anti war protester spits on veteran". In fact, I have long hoped one of them would do it to me, because from what I have seen, in videos on the internet, right wing bullies have been posting video of their intimidating peace protesters, spitting on them, ripping their signs out of their hands, and running them off. I will give them a video to put on Utube, but it will be slightly different.

You want me to believe it was so different back then. But I don't. I know these people. They haven't changed.

Here is what I remember: a group of uniformed guys - myself included, had gotten off a flight from DC to Chicago and was confronted by a group of long haired, tie dyed college aged kids who were screaming at us to lay down our arms and stop fighting the immoral war in Vietnam.... (and realize that, at the time, I was a sophomore at the Naval Academy heading home for Christmas vacation walking with a group of Army and Marines) some in my group - not me - called them some derrogatory name... faggot, coward, pussy, commie...I can't remember... and things jsut escalated.... one of the long haired kids spit at me and missed.... others spit at a few of the others.... O'Hare security guards and MP's that were patrolling the corridors quickly broke it up. It was my ONLY experience with anti-war protesters when in uniform. period.

 

[Cancel7]

Damo I never said that anyone was perfect. Certainly not me. (though, parts of me are excellent, since you bring it up). And I never said it never happened. Just that evidence of it was anecdotal which it still is. I always assumed it happened to someone, somewhere. It’s the laws of probability.

But I think it was rare, I think it was unimportant, I think it was grossly exaggerated in order to make political points. I think it was used, and I think it’s still used. I think basically, that it was largely mythical. And that it was, and remains, a diversion.

You think whatever you want to, though I’ll point out that you have absolutely zero experience with anti-war protesters or pro-war protesters, as far as I know at any rate.

 

[uscitizen]

You think whatever you want to, though I’ll point out that you have absolutely zero experience with anti-war protesters or pro-war protesters, as far as I know at any rate.
//

But he hears about them on talk radio!

 

[Damocles]

Damo I never said that anyone was perfect. Certainly not me. (though, parts of me are excellent, since you bring it up). And I never said it never happened. Just that evidence of it was anecdotal which it still is. I always assumed it happened to someone, somewhere. It’s the laws of probability.

But I think it was rare, I think it was unimportant, I think it was grossly exaggerated in order to make political points. I think it was used, and I think it’s still used. I think basically, that it was largely mythical. And that it was, and remains, a diversion.

You think whatever you want to, though I’ll point out that you have absolutely zero experience with anti-war protesters or pro-war protesters, as far as I know at any rate.

Once again. There is a reason they have protected status under the law, and it isn't because how they were treated was exaggerated. They truly were reviled at the time. While I was young during VN I do remember the news, I spend much time among the vets at the Legion, and I do know some of them who are pro-war demonstrators (and like you I can say that I know of not even one of them who would spit on or otherwise attempt to harm a peace activist... I guess that means that your stories are "rare" and anecdotal....).

 

[Cypress]

Yes it does sound like RSR was right on that, but were they cons or libs ?
no proof either way. MIght even have been Jews, illegal immigrants or Canadians ....

The fact that swastikas were involved answers your question.

It was done by extreme rightwing fanatics: neo-nazis or anarchists. The pacific northwest is a well known home to neo-nazi groups, and young punk teenage anarchists.

 

[Cancel7]

Once again. There is a reason they have protected status under the law, and it isn't because how they were treated was exaggerated. They truly were reviled at the time. While I was young during VN I do remember the news, I spend much time among the vets at the Legion, and I do know some of them who are pro-war demonstrators (and like you I can say that I know of not even one of them who would spit on or otherwise attempt to harm a peace activist... I guess that means that your stories are "rare" and anecdotal....).

Who passed this law? was this a federal law? Let me see it, if you have any info on it, I'm interested.

 

[Cancel7]

The fact that swastikas were involved answers your question.

It was done by extreme rightwing fanatics: neo-nazis or anarchists. The pacific northwest is a well known home to neo-nazi groups, and young punk teenage anarchists.

Too true. I should have just left it at that. What a waste of my time.

 

[OrnotBitwise]

Seriously, do you think they just made up those laws because they thought it was a good idea?

Damo, are you serious? Of course they just make up laws because they think it's a "good idea." A good idea for scoring political points for no work. Politicians *love* a good urban myth: it's the easiest way for them to pander to some consitituency without actually doing anything at all.

People on your end of the spectrum tend to call it "feel good" legislation, I believe.

 

[Damocles]

Who passed this law? was this a federal law? Let me see it, if you have any info on it, I'm interested.

Yes, it was. As a manager I was required to show equal opportunity to them as well as to the other protected status minorities.

Have you ever heard of the VEOA? (The Veterans Emplyment Opportunities Act)

It was passed in 1998.... It added to and strengthened protections already extended to them.

Also look into the Vietnam Era Veterans' Readjustment Assistance Act of 1974, note how it specifies Vietnam Era Veterans having a specific protected status.

Notice that Affirmative Action applies to Vietnam era veterans specifically? That is because they have a special protection as being the only veterans that were treated quite a poorly as they were....

That I have to bring up that these veterans were so poorly treated it was codified their protection makes me wonder if your employer is following the law. I have never once in my life taken a job without reading up on the protected status of Vietnam era veterans along with all the other protected groups as I answered questionnaires regarding whether I belonged to any of the protected groups. It has been in every class on EO that I have ever had to take part of....

I do not believe you are that ignorant of this, I believe that your employer followed the law so you have answered in the negative that you are a Vietnam Veteran. I don't believe that you have never heard of this and that you are willfully forgetting it because it is inconvenient to the argument that their poor treatment is "mythical".

 

[Cancel7]

Oh Damo.

They were treated terribly by the government, yes. But to blame anti-war protesters is terrible. the government passing a law blaming anti-war protesters is proof of nothing, it is rather, exactly what I thought it was.

I know you mean well. But I have rarely seen a bigger load of BS.

Let's just leave it as is. We each have our own opinions on this. You may have the last word. I don't want to argue this any longer. Not because I think you're right, or because I'm "afraid" damo. But because I really know you mean well, and we are just two worlds apart on this, so I think it's best to drop it.

 

[Damocles]

Oh Damo.

They were treated terribly by the government, yes. But to blame anti-war protesters is terrible. the government passing a law blaming anti-war protesters is proof of nothing, it is rather, exactly what I thought it was.

I know you mean well. But I have rarely seen a bigger load of BS.

Let's just leave it as is. We each have our own opinions on this. You may have the last word. I don't want to argue this any longer. Not because I think you're right, or because I'm "afraid" damo. But because I really know you mean well, and we are just two worlds apart on this, so I think it's best to drop it.

They were treated poorly by many people, they were fired from jobs, mistrusted, and reviled by a huge amount of people. There is a reason they were elevated to the status where you see them specifically menioned on the AA forms you fill out before you gain employment.

 

[Cancel7]

Do you mean the EO statement? We are an equal opportunity employer, blah blah? I’ve never read it. I read the offer letter, that’s about it. I didn’t know there was a law, and as soon as you said there was one, my heart sank thinking about what rat bastards the government is filled with. They’re the ones who sent them over there for a lie. They’re the ones who fought the very idea that PTSD even existed when they came back. They’re the ones who didn’t treat them. And then they used them one more time, in order to discredit the anti-war movement, filled with returning Vets itself.

As I said we’re on two different worlds on this, but your implication that I was pretending not to know something for some nebulous reason, is wrong, and weird. I’m surprised you think I’d do that