Identical twins, one gay, one ain't

Solitary said:
I think there is sufficient documented evidence to show the causes may be a combination of the two.

It seems as though it boils down to one saide claiming it is a choice and the other saying there is no choice involved. Every gay person I have ever asked said they were the way they are from as far back as they can remember. The studies (like the one I posted here) that have examined the brains have seen documentable differences.
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I hate to sound like I'm parsing words here but I think this is an issue where you have to be very carefull in how you phrase things.

I agree with you that there is sufficent information to show that their "may" be enough evidence to show that both biology and learned behavior are combined influences but to this date the best studies have shown that leanred behavior appears to be more determinitive in gay behavior that biology. Again, this does not mean the two are mutually exclusive and may just mean that not enough is known about the biology of gay behavior.

I agree with for most gay people being gay is not a choice. It was behavior that has been engrained by a variety of factors from a very early age in their development. There are those for which being gay is a choice but I think they are more the exception than the rule.
 
Solitary said:
So what you are saying is that it could be either environmental or biological?
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or both or one and not the other. All's I know from the literature is that there is more evidence that environmental factors are more determinative towards being gay then biological. That doesn't mean either position is the absolute truth. There is much we don't know about the biology and behavior of human sexuality but the peponderance of evidence that we do have leans more strongly towards environmental factors though I stress again, these two influences are not mutually exclusive. Very likely it is a combination of the two that is determinitive.

I also must stress here, and I hope you would agree, that almost all expresions of sexuality are normal from a biological perspective.
 
Mottleydude said:
....

I agree with for most gay people being gay is not a choice. It was behavior that has been engrained by a variety of factors from a very early age in their development. There are those for which being gay is a choice but I think they are more the exception than the rule.
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Yet in this instance both gals grew up in the same house, went to the same schools and played the same sports.

Maybe one of them got a blue toothbrush and the other got pink? :rolleyes:
 
Southern Man said:
Actually, its been established that these tow twin are identical in nearly every way. *shrug*
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Biologically they are identical. But what about the environmental external factors that impact human development? They could be radically different for these twins as individuals and have a profound impact on their development. A single incident in the early stages on ones life can have profound significance as one develops as a person.
 
Southern Man said:
Yet in this instance both gals grew up in the same house, went to the same schools and played the same sports.

Maybe one of them got a blue toothbrush and the other got pink? :rolleyes:
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And one may have gotten more of one hormone or another while in the womb. You keep insisting that they are identical, and yet variations in the blood supply to twins is well documented.
 
Mottleydude said:
Biologically they are identical. But what about the environmental external factors that impact human development? They could be radically different for these twins as individuals and have a profound impact on their development. A single incident in the early stages on ones life can have profound significance as one develops as a person.
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You could say that a single incidence affected my life in that I chose to be a conservative (actually it was a series of events). One of these gals obviously chose to be gay; she certainly wasn't born that way. *shrug*
 
Solitary said:
And one may have gotten more of one hormone or another while in the womb. You keep insisting that they are identical, and yet variations in the blood supply to twins is well documented.
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And you keep maintaining that this minute hormonal difference caused one of the gals to be gay, and that's the only apparent difference in the twins. Again, nice hypothesis, but you have nothing to base it on.
 
Southern Man said:
You could say that a single incidence affected my life in that I chose to be a conservative (actually it was a series of events). One of these gals obviously chose to be gay; she certainly wasn't born that way. *shrug*
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You say that as if you actually know it. You have no way of knowing what factors influenced their development in the womb. Additional hormones have been theorized to be one factor in homosexuality.

You want to believe she made a choice. But you have no real evidence of that.
 
Southern Man said:
And you keep maintaining that this minute hormonal difference caused one of the gals to be gay, and that's the only apparent difference in the twins. Again, nice hypothesis, but you have nothing to base it on.
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There is research suggesting hormones from the mother may help decide sexuality. This is far better evidence than your "one twin is straight, so I know the other made a choice to be gay".
 
Solitary said:
You say that as if you actually know it. You have no way of knowing what factors influenced their development in the womb. Additional hormones have been theorized to be one factor in homosexuality.

You want to believe she made a choice. But you have no real evidence of that.
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You want to believe that she was born gay, but all evidence points otherwise.
 
Southern Man said:
You want to believe that she was born gay, but all evidence points otherwise.
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Rubbish, much conversation has been spent presenting contrary evidence to your assertion. The only thing we know absolutely is you have the ability to ignore inconvenient evidence when you want in order to maintain your preconceived notions. Thankfully you are not a scientist.
 
Damocles said:
Rubbish, much conversation has been spent presenting contrary evidence to your assertion. The only thing we know absolutely is you have the ability to ignore inconvenient evidence when you want in order to maintain your preconceived notions. Thankfully you are not a scientist.
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I think this says it all.
 
Solitary said:
There is research suggesting hormones from the mother may help decide sexuality. This is far better evidence than your "one twin is straight, so I know the other made a choice to be gay".
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Actually, you don't have any evidence to support your hypothesis. In absence of evidence to the contrary, usually the simplest explanation is the right one. *shrug*
 
Damocles said:
Rubbish, much conversation has been spent presenting contrary evidence to your assertion. The only thing we know absolutely is you have the ability to ignore inconvenient evidence when you want in order to maintain your preconceived notions. Thankfully you are not a scientist.
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Actually, the "born gay" side of this discussion has shown little or no evidence to support their hypothesis.
 
There was a study quoted that hormonal and other influences on the fetus while still in the womb may have an effect on sexuality.

There was a link to information about identical twins showing that they do not necessarily receive the same nutrients.

That you claim there is no evidence shows, as Damo said, "...you have the ability to ignore inconvenient evidence when you want in order to maintain your preconceived notions".

The two studies shown are more evidence than you have offered. Your "usually the simplest explanation is the right one" is not any sort of evidence.



So far you have maintained that both studies offered as evidence are wrong, and that environmental influences beyond their control are nonexistent.

In other words, you want to be right so you claim you are right.






It is just as likely that the straight sister is a latent lesbian, but has been scared by the social conservatives into pretending that she is straight. Given the amount of bias against homosexuals, that would be the simplest answer.
 
Southern Man said:
Yet in this instance both gals grew up in the same house, went to the same schools and played the same sports.

Maybe one of them got a blue toothbrush and the other got pink? :rolleyes:
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I know your just being sarcastic but it's not that simple. My ex had post traumatic stress disorder as a result of having been a rape viction. One traumatic incident in a persons life, particularly when they are young and developing can have profound consequences. Many of the ladies whom she had counseling with for rape related PTSD became lesbians. They didn't choose to become lesbians per se so much as due to the PTSD they were extremely uncomfortable with men. One of the ladies she was in counseling with was a close friends and colleagues wife. One day while we were both at work an intruder broke into his apartment and violently raped and sodomized his wife in front of their 2 year old daughter. She developed PTSD as a result of this visceous attack and became intensly uncomfortable around men. They tried counseling for years but she never fully recovered. She eventually divorced my friend and subsequently became involved in a lesbian relationship. To say she chose to become a lesbian under these cirumstances is a real stretch but it's obvious that biological factors had little to do with her entering into a lesbian relationship.

I know from my own family how complicated this is. My older brother is the stereotype of limp wristed gayman. He even makes his living as an interior decorator and fashion consultant. He was that way from the dawn of memory. When we were little kids playing house he'd want to play the Mommy character.

My sister on the other hand came out of the closet after being in a lesbian relationship for a dozen years and astounded us all. She had always been the girly girl type. Cheer leader and all that. She's as far from a stereotype of a lesbian as you can get. I mean with 20:20 hindsight I can see the clues. She sure didn't go out with many guys but I sure didn't see it at the time.
 
Southern Man said:
You could say that a single incidence affected my life in that I chose to be a conservative (actually it was a series of events). One of these gals obviously chose to be gay; she certainly wasn't born that way. *shrug*
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How can you draw that conclusion? Do you know all the environmental factors that have impacted her development? I have to differentiate with you on this point. Learned behavior does not neccessarily equate with choice.
 
Southern Man said:
You want to believe that she was born gay, but all evidence points otherwise.
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Well all sexual behavior is learned behavior but that does not discount that biology can predispose one towards a particular sexual orienation.

I wouldn't use the term "Born Gay" rather I would say one may be born predisposed towards gay behavior.
 
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