The Constitution protects Trumps tax returns

[Robo]

The IRS cannot get probable cause to investigate tax fraud unless they first have access to a person's tax returns.

The IRS has Trump’s tax returns. If there’s tax fraud in them, it’s the authority of the IRS to deal with that accordingly. I’m sure the IRS doesn’t need the congress to investigate Trump’s taxes. An IRS audit is a tax investigation.

That comes from congressional statutes requiring people to submit that return to the IRS. They don't need probable cause to receive and review that return.

The IRS operates under the 16th amendment to our Constitution, and thereby has constitutional authority to review and audit if they choose everybody’s tax returns. The Congress has no such “CONSTITUTIONAL” authority. Congress gives their oath to preserve, protect & defend the Constitution. They have no authority to violate it!

If Congress can require Americans to submit their tax return to the IRS, why can't they also require a submission to Congress?

Because Congress passed the 16th amendment to authorize the income tax. Congress didn’t pass an amendment or include in the 16th amendment any authority for the Congress to be violating the 4th amendment and snoop around in THE PEOPLE’s tax returns. Congress couldn’t get an amendment like that passed in a million years. Only brain-dead leftist authoritarians would favor such An amendment and vote for it.

 

[Robo]

The chair of ways and means can ask for anyone's tax returns and the IRS shall furnish them. It is part of their investigative powers and the checks and balances that were meaningful until Trump came along.

You're gonna have to wait and see what the Republican dominated Supreme Court has to say about that Nordi. You better hope those Republicans on the court are Never-Trumpers Neocons & RINO's huh?

 

[PoliTalker]

Hello Robo,

In America, if you can't prove a crime, there is NO crime,

Bullshit. There are plenty of unsolved crimes. Unsolved crimes often are thus due to lack of enough evidence to prove it in court.

would you have that changed, just for Trump or Trump and all Republicans and other people that don't hate the justice system as much as you do too?

I don't hate the justice system. I understand that to maintain the benefit of the doubt, that some criminals must go free. That includes the President, if he has committed crimes, which I suspect he has. We have testimony and a check indicating that the President broke campaign finance law.

Actually it's designed to consider everybody, (even you), to be "INNOCENT" until "PROVEN" guilty.

That's is why the President is not in prison right now.

No proof of guilt "NO CRIME!"

No, that is not true. Al Capone committed many crimes but went free because of inability to prove guilt. That did not mean those crimes were not committed. They eventually got him on tax evasion. The President has been reluctant to release his tax returns. WE ALL WONDER WHY.

HILLARY!!!!!!

Do you believe crimes have been committed, but since they cannot be proved there is no indictment? What happened to "No proof of guilt "NO CRIME!""??? Or does that only selectively apply, in your view...

If you give me enough rope to hang your argument, you have to expect that it will be used.

 

[Flash]

The IRS has Trump’s tax returns. If there’s tax fraud in them, it’s the authority of the IRS to deal with that accordingly. I’m sure the IRS doesn’t need the congress to investigate Trump’s taxes. An IRS audit is a tax investigation.

I did not say Congress needed to investigate Trump's taxes--that is a political decision made by the House. My point was that Trump and other Americans are required to submit their tax return to the IRS. The IRS does not need probable cause to get those returns just like Congress would not need probable cause to get somebody's returns. They can't find fraud unless they first have access to that return which did not require probable cause.

The IRS operates under the 16th amendment to our Constitution, and thereby has constitutional authority to review and audit if they choose everybody’s tax returns. The Congress has no such “CONSTITUTIONAL” authority. Congress gives their oath to preserve, protect & defend the Constitution. They have no authority to violate it!

No, the 16th Amendment allows Congress to tax income not apportioned among the states based on population as was required under the Constitution.

"The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration."

There is nothing in the 16th about the IRS. All the tax laws enabled by the amendment are statutes passed by Congress. The IRS has no separate constitutional authority other than the powers given to it by Congress. You are confusing the constitutional authority to tax with some imaginary constitutional authority for the IRS.

Because Congress passed the 16th amendment to authorize the income tax. Congress didn’t pass an amendment or include in the 16th amendment any authority for the Congress to be violating the 4th amendment and snoop around in THE PEOPLE’s tax returns. Congress couldn’t get an amendment like that passed in a million years. Only brain-dead leftist authoritarians would favor such An amendment and vote for it.

The 16th does not authorize the income tax, Congress had the power to tax income before the amendment and did so. The 16th just says that income does not have to be apportioned among the states. Requiring individuals to submit their tax returns to the IRS or Congress does not violate the 4th Amendment.

As my earlier link proved, the 4th mainly applies to evidence used in criminal prosecutions (with certain exceptions like safety inspections). Not wanting Congress to look at Trump's tax returns is based on political objections. I also think it is a big waste of time, but I don't try to make it a constitutional issue.

And, there is no search in this case. The IRS legally had those returns which it is being asked to provide them to Congress.

 

[Nordberg]

Checks and balances permit the Ways and Means Comm. to get taxes of any American via the IRS. It is not hard to understand. Nor is it difficult to comprehend that rightys are throwing out bullshit to protect Trump. That, of course, is because they think he is guilty and they want him to escape punishment. If they thought he was clean,, they would be screaming for his taxes to be open to all.

 

[Robo]

Hello Robo,



Bullshit. There are plenty of unsolved crimes. Unsolved crimes often are thus due to lack of enough evidence to prove it in court.

I repeat, “If you can’t prove a crime, there is no crime!” Example, Mueller’s finding and report about Trump obstruction of justice. No Indictment=NO CRIME!

I don't hate the justice system. I understand that to maintain the benefit of the doubt, that some criminals must go free. That includes the President, if he has committed crimes, which I suspect he has. We have testimony and a check indicating that the President broke campaign finance law.

CNN & MSNBC & YOU are the only people that know that and call it a crime. If the Stormy Danials pay off was a campaign finance violation, then what is the congressional slush fund that paid off sexual harassment charges against members of the Congress with taxpayer’s dollars?

That's is why the President is not in prison right now.

When was “campaign finance violations” a crime punished by “PRISON?” I thought it was simply a fine ?????”

No, that is not true. Al Capone committed many crimes but went free because of inability to prove guilt. That did not mean those crimes were not committed. They eventually got him on tax evasion. The President has been reluctant to release his tax returns. WE ALL WONDER WHY.

I repeat, if you can’t prove somebody committed a crime, there is no crime committed by said person, Do you understand that now?

Trump’s tax returns are Trump’s & the IRS’s business. If there’s a crime by Trump’s tax filings, it’s the IRS’s & Justice Department’s business. If Congress can show with “PROBABLE CAUSE” there is a Trump crime in his tax filings, only then can congress claim a reason for looking at Trump’s tax returns.

Do you believe crimes have been committed, but since they cannot be proved there is no indictment? What happened to "No proof of guilt "NO CRIME!""??? Or does that only selectively apply, in your view...

As you have observed, there are plenty of unsolved crimes. Particular folks are only guilty of particular crimes when proven that they committed said crimes. Get it?????

If you give me enough rope to hang your argument, you have to expect that it will be used.

Just exactly what part of my arguments do you believe you have hung?

 

[PoliTalker]

Hello Robo,

I repeat, “If you can’t prove a crime, there is no crime!” Example, Mueller’s finding and report about Trump obstruction of justice. No Indictment=NO CRIME!

CNN & MSNBC & YOU are the only people that know that and call it a crime. If the Stormy Danials pay off was a campaign finance violation, then what is the congressional slush fund that paid off sexual harassment charges against members of the Congress with taxpayer’s dollars?

When was “campaign finance violations” a crime punished by “PRISON?” I thought it was simply a fine ?????”

I repeat, if you can’t prove somebody committed a crime, there is no crime committed by said person, Do you understand that now?

Trump’s tax returns are Trump’s & the IRS’s business. If there’s a crime by Trump’s tax filings, it’s the IRS’s & Justice Department’s business. If Congress can show with “PROBABLE CAUSE” there is a Trump crime in his tax filings, only then can congress claim a reason for looking at Trump’s tax returns.

As you have observed, there are plenty of unsolved crimes. Particular folks are only guilty of particular crimes when proven that they committed said crimes. Get it?????


Just exactly what part of my arguments do you believe you have hung?

You can dance around this all you like, put President Trump high up on a pedestal. Nothing you say changes the definition of the word 'shall.'

Why have President Trump's returns not been turned over to Congress yet?

Are we headed for another Kim Davis episode?

 

[Robo]

I did not say Congress needed to investigate Trump's taxes--that is a political decision made by the House. My point was that Trump and other Americans are required to submit their tax return to the IRS. The IRS does not need probable cause to get those returns.

As I explained friend, the IRS has the authority to receive, examine and audit everybody’s income tax returns, by way of the 16'th amendment because, “The Congress shall have and does have the authority to “make all laws “NECESSARY & PROPER.” (Article one section 8) The “NECESSARY” law gives that power to the IRS as “PROPER” because the “INTERNAL REVENUE SERVICE is the “NECESSARY AND PROPER” place for all taxes to be received, inspected, and audited. Otherwise all tax returns are covered by the 4th amendment as being “PAPERS” to be “SECURE.”

just like Congress would not need probable cause to get somebody's returns. They can't find fraud unless they first have access to that return which did not require probable cause.

They only have the right to find fraud with a warrant issued by “PROBABLE CAUSE.” [See Amendment 4)

First you argue that the Congress is simply looking for a “civil case” against Trump, then you claim they’re looking for the “felony” of “fraud?” You need to make up your mind friend.

While you’re making up your mind friend please instruct me to go to the place in the Constitution, in particular the 4th amendment that classifies “probable cause” as being specifically only for criminal cases. And you can also explain the “CIVIL” case the Democrats in the Congress are trying to make against Trump, OK?

Seems friend that your claiming that if I have a civil case against you, I can ask the IRS for your tax returns and they’ll just give me a copy, right? Or Trump can just ask the IRS for Nadler’s taxes and they’ll just give then to him if he claims they’re simply for a civil case, right?

 

[Robo]

The 16th does not authorize the income tax, Congress had the power to tax income before the amendment and did so. The 16th just says that income does not have to be apportioned among the states. Requiring individuals to submit their tax returns to the IRS or Congress does not violate the 4th Amendment.

Incorrect! Before the 16th amendment, the Congress had only the power to collect Duties, Impost & Excises taxes!

Not wanting Congress to look at Trump's tax returns is based on political objections. I also think it is a big waste of time, but I don't try to make it a constitutional issue.

But it is a constitutional issue! And it will go through the courts. The only reason the Democrats in the Congress want to see Trump’s taxes is purely political and a obvious & blatant fishing expedition, denying that is absurd and dishonest!

 

[Robo]

Hello Robo,



You can dance around this all you like, put President Trump high up on a pedestal. Nothing you say changes the definition of the word 'shall.'

Why have President Trump's returns not been turned over to Congress yet?

Are we headed for another Kim Davis episode?

I'm not dancing around anything, I'm simply presenting the constitutional protections clauses and text. Trump's taxes aren't received by the Congress yet, because they haven't shown Probable Cause. It's going to the courts. I'll predict the Democrats in the Congress will never see Trump's taxes.

 

[Nordberg]

You're gonna have to wait and see what the Republican dominated Supreme Court has to say about that Nordi. You better hope those Republicans on the court are Never-Trumpers Neocons & RINO's huh?

In this case, the law is clear and there is no debate. It says the IRS shall turn them over to Ways and Means. What you lying rightys want the Supremes to do is write law to protect Daffy. You guys pretend you want Supremes who will not write law, but you are lying. Tear down those checks and balances. End the house's power to investigate and subpoena. After Trump is gone, we can change it all back. Or declare Trump king and give him the ultimate power rightys want him to have.

 

[PoliTalker]

Hello Nordberg,

In this case, the law is clear and there is no debate. It says the IRS shall turn them over to Ways and Means. What you lying rightys want the Supremes to do is write law to protect Daffy. You guys pretend you want Supremes who will not write law, but you are lying. Tear down those checks and balances. End the house's power to investigate and subpoena. After Trump is gone, we can change it all back. Or declare Trump king and give him the ultimate power rightys want him to have.

The oceans will rise and consume the Lincoln Memorial before the right wants Trump to leave.

 

[Nordberg]

Munchkin has been informed that he could get up to 5 years in jail for stepping in the way of the IRS and Ways and Means. Working for Daffy is dangerous.

 

[Flash]

Incorrect! Before the 16th amendment, the Congress had only the power to collect Duties, Impost & Excises taxes!

Not true. Read the Constitution:

"Article I, Section 8, Clause 1: The Congress shall have Power to lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States.

Congress imposed an income tax in 1861 and a flat income tax in 1894 which was declared unconstitutional. It was not unconstitutional because it taxed income, but because it was not apportioned among the states based on population. That is what the 16th Amendment allowed.

 

[Flash]

While you’re making up your mind friend please instruct me to go to the place in the Constitution, in particular the 4th amendment that classifies “probable cause” as being specifically only for criminal cases.

You asked me for that once and I provided it. I did not specifically say "probable cause" is only for criminal cases but that the protections of the 4th amendment are to protect against using illegal evidence in criminal prosecutions (which is essentially the same). The proof that it applies primarily to criminal cases (with a couple of exceptions) is here:

"There are a couple of exceptions to my claim about applications to criminal proceedings (such as safety code inspections), but they do not involve congressional subpoenas.

"Searches and Inspections in Noncriminal Cases.—Certain early cases held that the Fourth Amendment was applicable only when a search was undertaken for criminal investigatory purposes,80 and the Supreme Court until recently employed a reasonableness test for such searches without requiring either a warrant or probable cause in the absence of a warrant.81 But, in 1967, the Court in two cases held that administrative inspections to detect building code violations must be undertaken pursuant to warrant if the occupant objects.82 “We may agree that a routine inspection of the physical condition of private property is a less hostile intrusion than the typical policeman’s search for the fruits and instrumentalities of crime. . . . But we cannot agree that the Fourth Amendment interests at stake in these inspection cases are merely ‘peripheral.’ It is surely anomalous to say that the individual and his private property are fully protected by the Fourth Amendment only when the individual is suspected of criminal behavior.”83 Certain administrative inspections used to enforce regulatory schemes with regard to such items as alcohol and firearms are, however, exempt from the Fourth Amendment warrant requirement and may be authorized simply by statute.84

https://law.justia.com/constitution/...nal-cases.html

 

[Nordberg]

Section 6103 Tax code. Treasury officials shall turn over tax returns upon written request of the chair of either tax committees or to employees in joint committees on taxation.
Very clear and simple. sect 7214 says employees not doing their duties face removal from office, 10,000 dollar fine and up to 5 years in jail.
Nixon had to comply and it was found he was cheating to about 3.4 million dollars. Munchkin, I am sure does not want to face that to keep Daffy happy. Not will Rettig go to jail for him.
It is the law.

 

[Nordberg]

We also know that Trump was taken to court twice for tax crimes and lost them both. He was dressed down by the judges who were shocked at how blatant he was. One tax preparer said the form that was in court real and from his company, but the signature was not his. Trump has no respect for the law.

 

[lisasanders1964]

Where's The Obama's college records lol?

Where's Pelosi's tax returns lol?

Another republicunt who can't read. Apparently Robo's post - right at the top of this thread alleges that the constitution protects drumpfs tax returns.

That means the constitution also protects President Obama's college records and Nancy Pelosi's tax returns.

It also means that drumpf violated the US constitution when he demanded President Obama release his birth certificate.

What is the penalty for violating the US constitution?

 

[lisasanders1964]

So the US constitution protects drumpf's tax returns.

Thats great news for all the democrat candidates in 2020. NONE of them will release their tax returns too cos the US constitution protects THEIR tax returns too.

Now watch drumpf and his republicunt cocksuckers scream and shout demanding the democrat candidates release their tax returns.

Yep - we will once again see the republicunts claim the US constitution only applies to drumpf and noone else.

Fuck 'we the people' - it's now ' Salute our nazi god - drumpf!'

 

[Nordberg]

Trump's college records were protected by Trump lawyers threatening lawsuits if they got out. That is because Trump had great grades, the best ever. Same for high school.
The Dems are releasing their tax records. Every one of them will. The rules just do not apply to Trump.
Obama was magna cum laude at Harvard Law. That is telling you what kind of grades he had.