When Will We Recover From The Civil War? Now Is The Time.

PoliTalker said:
Hello and welcome Triplelefthook,

Thanks for the polite reply. I am glad you found the forum. I like to acquaint all newcomers to my own rules, which are more strict than the site rules, created to ensure a polite posting experience, which I hope are no problem at all:

"Personal Ignore Policy PIP: I like civil discourse. I will give you all the respect in the world if you respect me. Mouth off to me, or express overt racism, you will be PERMANENTLY Ignore Listed. Zero tolerance. No exceptions. I'll never read a word you write, even if quoted by another, nor respond to you, nor participate in your threads. ... Ignore the shallow. Cherish the thoughtful. Long Live Civil Discourse, Mutual Respect, and Good Debate! ps: Feel free to adopt my PIP. It works well."

If that is agreeable then I am happy to welcome you to JPP. If not, then we won't be talking long.



Discrimination, redlining, Jim Crow laws are some of the major ways that racism has made less opportunity for realization of the American dream available to blacks. Many other more subtle cultural effects are also at work. The fact that some blacks surpass all the odds and do well only serves to show that they have just as much potential as whites. It shows that the racism present since the Civil War is still with us.

Black parents are familiar with 'the talk.' They have to tell their black children upon coming of age that the world is stacked against them and they need to live to a higher standard if they want to avoid problems including possible wrongful death. Keep your hands out of your pockets. Don't wear a hoodie. Don't talk back to a policeman. Make sure all your tail lights work. Keep your hands up on the top of the wheel and in plain view. Ask permission to reach into your pocket for an ID. And on and on like that.

White parents do not have to have 'the talk' with their children.
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that's good advice for anyone dealing with police.
 
Hello NiftyNiblick,

NiftyNiblick said:
You're again being a Pollyanna, PoliTalker.

Passion doesn't bring reform.
Passion rises and diminishes.
White liberals want reform, but after a lot of commotion, things die down and it's still somebody else's problem to us in the end.

Reform must come dispassionately because good people know it's the right thing to do.
The United States, especially the Red ones, but really all of them, are not the first place to look for good people.
We're diseased with socially regressive Neanderthals of multiple ethnicities.

The problem with the civil war was that Reconstruction was truncated and thus never really happened.
Abolishing slavery was absolutely necessary, but was preserving the Union?

We have a nation of people who are quite sincere with their totally incompatible ideologies.
They will never allow peace to exist trying to live under the same government.
Partition might turn out to be the answer after all.
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No.

We are stronger together.

1/2 of the USA could not have won WWII.

1/2 the USA could not win the next big challenge.

And the last thing we want is another country right next door that opposes everything we do, everything that is good.

No!

The Union must be preserved. That is the vision of the founders and that is what we must fight for.

The responsibility to preserve the Union falls upon our shoulders.

If the Constitution is valid then we must endure 100%.

If we have to break up the Union that means the Constitution is a failure, that the very idea of a United States is a failure.

We must not accept failure.

No.

We shall fight for endurance.

The worthy and just commitment was made before any of us was born. It falls upon us to live up to it and keep it going.

That is not pollyanish.

That is fortitude.
 
Hello Dutch Uncle,

Dutch Uncle said:
No, why would I? Are you seriously trying to compare the South of 1862 to the Nazi regime? Are you really a Tech Sergeant or do you just play one on the Internet?

Thanks for admitting that South Carolina was a different country when it fired on Fort Sumter.
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SC was never a different country. If you could be a country just because you proclaim it, then ISIS was a country.
 
PoliTalker said:
Hello NiftyNiblick,



No.

We are stronger together.

1/2 of the USA could not have won WWII.

1/2 the USA could not win the next big challenge.

And the last thing we want is another country right next door that opposes everything we do, everything that is good.

No!

The Union must be preserved. That is the vision of the founders and that is what we must fight for.

The responsibility to preserve the Union falls upon our shoulders.

If the Constitution is valid then we must endure 100%.

If we have to break up the Union that means the Constitution is a failure, that the very idea of a United States is a failure.

We must not accept failure.

No.

We shall fight for endurance.

The worthy and just commitment was made before any of us was born. It falls upon us to live up to it and keep it going.

That is not pollyanish.

That is fortitude.
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you don't want to even preserve Seattle, you idiot doorknob.
 
PoliTalker said:
Hello Dutch Uncle,

SC was never a different country. If you could be a country just because you proclaim it, then ISIS was a country.
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Are you saying SC never had autonomy? Was never under a different authority?

ISIS was close to becoming it's own country but their strategy was fucked up and they pissed off too many of the wrong people.
 
Hello Dutch Uncle,

Dutch Uncle said:
Are you saying SC never had autonomy? Was never under a different authority?

ISIS was close to becoming it's own country but their strategy was fucked up and they pissed off too many of the wrong people.
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If you want to know what I am saying just read my posts.

You are not a country unless most of the world recognizes you as one.
 
PoliTalker said:
Hello Dutch Uncle,



If you want to know what I am saying just read my posts.

You are not a country unless most of the world recognizes you as one.
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Soooo, by extension, all of those gays who married on the beaches of Florida in the early 1990s aren't really married until the Government recognized them?
 
Hello Dutch Uncle,

Dutch Uncle said:
Soooo, by extension, all of those gays who married on the beaches of Florida in the early 1990s aren't really married until the Government recognized them?
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Mae West had no problem with gay people. WWII life jackets were named after her. This has more to do with what you said than what you said had to do with what I said.
 
Hello Dutch Uncle,

Dutch Uncle said:
True about ending loyalty, but initially it was defending against the attacking United States, meaning the remaining states in the Union. Interesting point about oaths of office in the military which points out a grammatical clue to the ideas these men had about their State and the Union (Federal government):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Uniformed_Services_Oath_of_Office#History
It was first updated in September 1776, after the Declaration of Independence, to swear to be “true to the United States of America, and to serve them honestly and faithfully against all their enemies opposers whatsoever; and to observe and obey the orders of the Continental Congress and the orders of the Generals and officers set over me by them".

This was changed in 1789 to place allegiance to the Constitution of the United States at the beginning of the oath. It remained relatively unchanged until the 1860s. At this point, the reference to "them" was replaced with "it" to reflect the realities of the divided nation during the American Civil War, as well as the shifting attitude of viewing the United States as one entity rather than a collection of smaller ones.
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The south fought nationalization and lost because it was inevitable as the world 'got smaller.'

American DT fans are fighting globalization in much the same fashion, and they will lose for the same reason.

Nationalism is a lost cause.
 
PoliTalker said:
Hello Dutch Uncle,

The south fought nationalization and lost because it was inevitable as the world 'got smaller.'

American DT fans are fighting globalization in much the same fashion, and they will lose for the same reason.

Nationalism is a lost cause.
Click to expand...

If Nationalism is a lost cause and the South was fighting Nationalism, then what does that say?

I do agree that part of modernity is the world getting smaller. What must be preserved are the rights of the individual and, within well-defined limits, the right of self-autonomy.

In the mail yesterday was my Libertarian renewal card. At the top was this statement for my signature: "I certify that I oppose the use of force to achieve political or social goals". Obviously that wasn't an ideal in or previous to the 20th Century. Certainly not when Lincoln invaded Virginia.
 
PoliTalker said:
Hello Dutch Uncle,

Mae West had no problem with gay people. WWII life jackets were named after her. This has more to do with what you said than what you said had to do with what I said.
Click to expand...
Disagreed that my post was meaningless or off topic.

PoliTalker said:
...You are not a country unless most of the world recognizes you as one.
Click to expand...

According to you Israel didn't become a country until it was recognized by others. Since Palestine was never recognized as a country, then you agree it was never a country and the whining of Palestinians is bullshit.
 
Hello Dutch Uncle,

Dutch Uncle said:
Trump says he doesn't advocate violence either. :)

Agreed, speak a lot of rhetoric and it only takes one nutjob to put it in the news. It's not human nature for everyone to abide by an agreement to avoid violence. Human history is primarily written in blood.
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Human nature, just like this forum, is what we make it. It is the sum of our combined efforts.

Logically, it should be possible to have a non-violent society if everyone has what they need to be happy.

And that would be easily possible if everyone were to recognize that win/win philosophy is right, and that win/lose philosophy is a loser.

The problem is that you have these people who lack self confidence and they foolishly think the only way to succeed is by pushing/holding others back. They are depressed and very cynical. They think the world is divided into winners and losers. They falsely think if they hold enough others back that makes themselves winners. That doesn't work. It's not possible.

You win an auto race by being the fastest and making the fewest errors which cost you speed. You do not win by trying to hold back the rest of your competitors. If you pick somebody and hold them back, that allows somebody else to pass you both. You are better off trying to concentrate on winning the race than on holding others back. If you simply don't mess up, nobody who does mess up can catch you. Win/win ultimately prevails over win/lose. Win/lose can prevail sometimes, but not consistently. And there is always that nagging feeling that somebody else was faster/better and the only way that race was won was by playing dirty. That results in a tainted win. A win/win victory is the best because you simply outran the competition.

What win/lose people fail to recognize in society is that people produce more when they work together than they do working individually/selfishly.

The product of combined efforts is greater than the sum of individual efforts.

We advance humanity by working together, not by taking from others.

Our modern world would not exist if we advanced by taking from others because if everyone did that there would be nothing to take. Nothing would ever be produced.

Win/win philosophy is what built the world. Win/lose philosophy is what tears it apart. The world is built up, so obviously win/win triumphs over win/lose.

It is a matter of believing in self potential. That's the battle for advancement.

Believing in possibilities instead of fearing failure. Win/win is believing in yourself. Win/lose is self-doubt.

Human advancement is a matter of what has been built and successfully defended, not what has been destroyed or taken.
 
PoliTalker said:
Hello and welcome Triplelefthook,

Thanks for the polite reply. I am glad you found the forum. I like to acquaint all newcomers to my own rules, which are more strict than the site rules, created to ensure a polite posting experience, which I hope are no problem at all:

"Personal Ignore Policy PIP: I like civil discourse. I will give you all the respect in the world if you respect me. Mouth off to me, or express overt racism, you will be PERMANENTLY Ignore Listed. Zero tolerance. No exceptions. I'll never read a word you write, even if quoted by another, nor respond to you, nor participate in your threads. ... Ignore the shallow. Cherish the thoughtful. Long Live Civil Discourse, Mutual Respect, and Good Debate! ps: Feel free to adopt my PIP. It works well."

If that is agreeable then I am happy to welcome you to JPP. If not, then we won't be talking long.



Discrimination, redlining, Jim Crow laws are some of the major ways that racism has made less opportunity for realization of the American dream available to blacks. Many other more subtle cultural effects are also at work. The fact that some blacks surpass all the odds and do well only serves to show that they have just as much potential as whites. It shows that the racism present since the Civil War is still with us.

Black parents are familiar with 'the talk.' They have to tell their black children upon coming of age that the world is stacked against them and they need to live to a higher standard if they want to avoid problems including possible wrongful death. Keep your hands out of your pockets. Don't wear a hoodie. Don't talk back to a policeman. Make sure all your tail lights work. Keep your hands up on the top of the wheel and in plain view. Ask permission to reach into your pocket for an ID. And on and on like that.

White parents do not have to have 'the talk' with their children.
Click to expand...

PoliTalker -

I can happily abide by those rules and I have really enjoyed your posts so far, mostly only had time to read them in this thread.

Full disclosure - I am white, British immigrant to the USA, parents are English (father) and Irish (mother) and I have no accent so I sound as American as they come. My parents have never faced any discrimination in this country, neither have I.

My father was once speeding with his friend in Scotland and they were beaten up by the cops for being English and my mother was hated in England for years until she lost her Irish accent and pretended to be English. That's it tho, that;s the extent of my hardships.

That being said my parents in this country had a variation of that 'talk.' The talk was to be respectful, careful and compliant with police because they have the capacity to abuse their power and you cannot give them any excuse to abuse that power.

If no one is breaking the law, don't black americans have every opportunity that white americans do? I feel like this is a lot more alongg the lines of poverty and class rather than race.
 
Hello Dutch Uncle,

Dutch Uncle said:
How can there be peace if one or the other is still warring with the other? If one is calling the other nasty names like "traitor", "racist" or "stupid" when there's no merit in the accusation?

It's impossible to get everyone to agree. At best, a sustainable majority will agree.

Back on symbols again. Asked and answered.

Coddling isn't the best way to raise adults....neither is treating them like they are sub-standard idiots who can't understand history and the difference between two extreme points of view.

You can't please everyone and it's bordering on insane to even try.
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By the same logic it is insane to try to have a life because you know you are going to die anyway.

But nobody in their right mind wants to end their life, so we might as well enjoy the ride.
 
PoliTalker said:
Hello Dutch Uncle,



By the same logic it is insane to try to have a life because you know you are going to die anyway.

But nobody in their right mind wants to end their life, so we might as well enjoy the ride.
Click to expand...

Enjoying the ride is not the same as understanding the futility of trying to please everyone. OTOH, trying to push what you believe to be right is part of life.
 
Hello Dutch Uncle,

Dutch Uncle said:
If Nationalism is a lost cause and the South was fighting Nationalism, then what does that say?

I do agree that part of modernity is the world getting smaller. What must be preserved are the rights of the individual and, within well-defined limits, the right of self-autonomy.

In the mail yesterday was my Libertarian renewal card. At the top was this statement for my signature: "I certify that I oppose the use of force to achieve political or social goals". Obviously that wasn't an ideal in or previous to the 20th Century. Certainly not when Lincoln invaded Virginia.
Click to expand...

The south was fighting the progress of the nation.

DT fans are fighting the progress of the world.

Doomed causes, both.

One may as well try to hold back a mighty river in extreme flood stage with a sand dike as the rain continues unabated.
 
PoliTalker said:
Hello Dutch Uncle,

Human nature, just like this forum, is what we make it. It is the sum of our combined efforts.

Logically, it should be possible to have a non-violent society if everyone has what they need to be happy.....
Click to expand...

When I say "human nature", I mean genetics. Human beings, like other animals, have a range of behaviors in which their actions can be predicted.

Just having everyone have a group hug won't make everyone happy....and that doesn't even address the mental cases. Not just nutjobs either, but people going through something very stressful and snapping. How do you fix that? The same way we reduce "gun violence" and all other forms of violence: through better mental health care and monitoring. Until then there will be no Human Utopia....and I doubt there ever will be.
 
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